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Boutique/indy skis

Philpug

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Indy's evolved from being Garage Brands, ski brands that were started in someone's garage. At first it was endearing then a knock. Could be use a venn diagram here, some skis are Indy, some are boutique..and some are both? It has a lot to do with perception. It we did a list of 15 brands, I am thinking we would see 20 different diagrams. Lets also not forget the "Premiums", some are stand alones such as Stockli & Kastle some will be boutiques also like Renoun...and maybe a DPS?
 
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Wasatchman

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Yeah. So splitting hairs but I think of boutiques as brands like Stockli, Kastle, and maybe a DPS. They have reasonably large distribution and while not nearly as large as mass brands, they are quite a bit larger than an indie. Like Phil said, Indie often started out in someone's garage and they have very little distribution at retail stores with a lot or all of their sales coming direct from the manufacturer.

But obviously a grey area. And I suppose if an indy gets big enough then it morphs into a boutique like I'd argue DPS for instance. :) and if a boutique gets big enough then it's a mass brand I guess.

Edit: and who knows, some would argue Kastle, DPS, and Stockli are simply premium rather than boutique. Which goes to show you I'm not sure there is a hard definition.
 

pchewn

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Took a tour in August 2017 of the ON3P factory in Portland Oregon. Great bunch of guys. I demo'ed a pair in the winter of 2017/18 . Nice skis, but beyond my price range. So I have none in my quiver.

They do free tours and free demos .

Their deck behind the shop has (of course) a bench with ON3P skis as the building materials. They have very high workmanship standards. Like the gap between the edge and the tip/tail protector has to be less than 0.5mm or they get rejected.

ON3P-bench.jpg
 

Philpug

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We have Moment here in town. They press quite a few skis, they claim to be the largest ski manufacturer in the US, while you cannot ski Mt. Rose and not see another pair in the lift line at at any moment, sorry, ask anyone outside of a 50 mile radius of Reno who does not frequent here or some other sites "Every hear of Moment skis? You will get a blank stare.

This is where most of the "indy" brands have a strong regional following.
 

Eleeski

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I do love my Praxis Backcountrys. Multiple pairs owned. Out whenever there's anything new. Still work once things get scraped off.

My favorite skis are old Goode 74s. My favorite bump skis. Magic in the spring or when the bumps are soft.

Those two pairs get 80% of my time on the hill and 95% of the excellent days. As not mainstream skis, they can fill a more unusual niche. Or maybe my preferences are that different.

Thanks to the small local shops, specifically Alpenglow in Tahoe City, that host demo days and seek out local manufacturers. My times on Moment skis were at their demo days - I was very tempted.

Local stuff can be very appropriate to the local area. As long as it doesn't suck, it's worthy of support.

Eric
 

Eric Edelstein

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While we do get into some indy brands along with boutiques here, I am not sure where you will find as much information on Renoun and Augment anwyere else. I would say www.exoticskis.com is the foremost best source for smaller brands.

Phil, you are too kind I owe you a couple a pints for the shout-out! :thumb::golfclap: .... We're up to around 446 different brands on the list now (besides the "Big 10") ...some deceased...others still alive and kicking..... We have only posted 206 comments about 64 different brands since starting the project in 2005, but we have fun doing it at we get to meet lots of funky, creative, driven people making skis of all types.

The ski industry has indeed sprouted lots of new brands over the last 10 years built in workshops staffed by 1 person, 5 people, families, 10 people...25 people...you name it.... Some are crude...some are gorgeous works of art, some are stunningly great, some are "meh".... it covers the spectrum. Some companies (Wagner, Folsom, Romp, DPS, ON3P, Moment, Praxis, Parlor, Liberty, J-Skis, Icelantic...and so many others) grow from "garage brands" or "hobby builders" to sustainable small manufacturing businesses with lots of credibility and products people love.

The "Big 10" brands can make awesome skis, with suberbly replicated high-quality in high-volume production, innovating every other season to bring new products to market for a consumer hungry for new toys. I love the new skis coming out of the big factories. The "indies" or "boutique" skis (I hate that term "boutique skis"...but others use it happily..oh well) can also produce stunningly fun skis with great quality and impressive durability, often offering customization big brands can't deliver to enthusiasts. The bottom line for our funky little crew here in Vermont is you can spend your money on the big brands and get great skis. You can also spend your money on the smaller, regional or even local brands near your favorite ski areas and get great skis. Skis from both big and small brands can make you crazy happy when you're out on the hill or backcountry, and having fun and being happy with your gear is the best feeling in the World for skiers.

Some ski designers and their companies outsource production to meet demands and bring their designs to market in a way they could not do alone. Outfitting a modern ski manufacturing facility to produce more than a few pairs of high-quality skis a week is VERY expensive and without funding partners and a business model to become sustainable without going broke creating a fully-outfitted factory. Most modern "indies" realize they can bring their designs to market in viable volumes reliably by using the expertise and facilities of OEM factories if they cannot or will not go into debt to build an on-site factory on speculation they can make a sustainable profit in [n] years. The factories love keeping their production lines humming year-round, and the designers can concentrate on R&D and innovation instead of keeping the inventory of wooden cores and Durasurf bases in synch with rolls of Austrian metal edges, rolls of fiberglass, carbon and Kevlar fabrics every week and fixing the planers and trimming machines when they go on the fritz. OEM builders like NeverSummer and Utopie in North America are doing a brisk business like their European and Asian counterparts manufacturing many brands we know and love with expert craftspeople in facilities designed to make great skis. With the right oversight and quality control, a small ski design company can bring awesome skis to market in a sustainable way without huge capital outlays and risky debt by outsourcing production to high-quality facilities with high-quality workmanship.

Other companies take pride in building everything "in-house" and that's a totally cool and an admirable goal with advantages and challenges all its own, and my hat's off to those brave souls for their courage and fortitude in a tough marketplace....but many survive and have built sustainable businesses with great skis. Many will even teach you to make your own skis under their supervision in their workshops so you get a great product built with your own hands.

The great part about living in our current era is you now have viable choices of the kinds of ski companies you want to support with your hard earned doubloons. When you pay your money to any ski company, big or small, it pays the salaries of people working at that company and their suppliers so they can feed their families. Despite all the craziness around us, this is still a great time to be a skier....never have we had a choice of so many great skis to suit any condition or terrain. Get out there and explore the brands you never heard of....most are actively doing demo-days and areas all over the World....hit their websites, contact them and ask where they have some demos happening...talk to them in-person and try their stuff!
 

Mel

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Interesting thread. I have a pair of Praxis that have been my daily skis for 2 years now, and just ordered a second (different) pair. To me, the difference between indy/boutique/regional/whatever descriptor you use and the larger corporate ski manufacturers isn't really (or isn't just) the product - skis in general are probably better quality, consistency, and availability than ever. Where the big manufacturers have a problem is that the choosing & buying experience is out of their control and dependant on retailers, while some of the indy manufacturers can make the buying experience enjoyable and even a selling feature of their product.

As an example, when I wanted new skis 3 years ago, it was close to impossible to find a lot of information about what I might like. Magazines are useless, as the "reviews" are sometimes just copied & pasted from advertising, or sound like skiing mad libs. Forums are hit and miss - it depends on who has experience with the same skis that I'm interested in. Most of the time the advice is "go demo", but demos are few and far between here, especially for the length skis I need.

I rented a few skis (not an inexpensive proposition) and figured out what I did and didn't like about them, then went shopping. Unfortunately, even at shops that I generally like, advice for women buying skis seems to consist of just recommending the Black Pearl (which I had tried, disliked, and told them as much). One local shop is good (and has a pretty diverse group of staff who test all the gear), but their selection in 160ish and smaller skis was limited, and there are some brands they just don't carry. One guy at another shop, when I repeated that I didn't like the BP after he recommended it anyway, just stared at me and said that most women liked them. Not sure if he was questioning my femininity or my taste in skis.

At that point I emailed Keith at Praxis. With a few emails back & forth about me, what I ski, where I ski, and what I did & didn't like about other skis, the really key features of the ski I wanted were dialled in and then it was just a matter of deciding what they'd look like. It was fun, and with the spring sale at Praxis, cost the same (even with buying them in USD) as buying skis locally - and they're exactly what I wanted. I'm sure that if I had kept looking locally or taken a chance on buying a ski, I would have found something I liked. I just wasn't willing to put in the time, energy, and money that it might have taken to get there. YMMV, obviously.
 

Eric Edelstein

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Bingo! Mel nailed one of the big reasons many people love going with smaller brands....and yes....your mileage may vary (YMMV). Generally, the smaller brands love to guide their customers into getting the right ski built with the proper characteristics (if it's a custom build)...and will pour their hearts out to make it work for the customer...It's a matter of pride in the craft as well as putting food on the table by selling skis for a living...
 

fatbob

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I'd argue that there is no real difference between indie and boutique and just cos some brands have high price points it doesn't mean they are suddenly in a different class. Brands like Kastle and Stockli aren't indy because they've been around forever even if Kastle got rebooted - there have been a couple of attempts at Kneissel do.

Augment, Bomber - sure indy for now, a very nichey niche though
Faction, DPS, Black Crows - kinda grown out of indieness now with PE backing
Dunnos - Movement - were for a while the next big thing in euro freeride, Icelantic - kinda got some reach but feel kinda static.

All a bit smoke and mirrors anyway. Guess I'm still in the mode of not particularly respecting the big guys because a) it took snowboarding to get them to introduce sidecut and b) the indies to push for wider more fun shapes. I'm well aware of the reason for that - conservatism is its own reward when trying to capture the mass market pie.
 

Yo Momma

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Blizzard going w/ "Flipcore" years ago, was definitely an "Indie/Garage" move by one of the big players. Not only was it a gimmick but it had legs and ended up being the real deal. It leveled me up! Did they copy and paste from an indie player that had already gone there? Hmmm? Anyone know for sure?
 

Philpug

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Blizzard going w/ "Flipcore" years ago, was definitely an "Indie/Garage" move by one of the big players. Not only was it a gimmick but it had legs and ended up being the real deal. It leveled me up! Did they copy and paste from an indie player that had already gone there? Hmmm? Anyone know for sure?
???? I am not sure you are completely aware of Blizzard's storied history.

I will say, Blizzard did go through some tough years here in the US in the 90's to mid 200o's with limited distribution but when Volkl and Tecnica spit and the Tecnica group took over distribution, they took off. But they were a mainstram brand for years with athletes on the World Cup like Franz Klammer, Peter Müller and Hans Enn,
 

Yo Momma

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???? I am not sure you are completely aware of Blizzard's storied history.

I will say, Blizzard did go through some tough years here in the US in the 90's to mid 200o's with limited distribution but when Volkl and Tecnica spit and the Tecnica group took over distribution, they took off. But they were a mainstram brand for years with athletes on the World Cup like Franz Klammer, Peter Müller and Hans Enn,
You are 100% correct. I'm going to read about that history, especially since I'm such a fan of the Bones. Good call! I lived in Europe for many years during HS and College and Blizzard was much more popular over there so I considered it "mainstream" from the get-go along w/ some other popular brands that I never saw here, like my Kienzlers and a few others that never made it to the U.S. market. Thanks Phil I'll check that out. :beercheer:
 

Tricia

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Blizzard going w/ "Flipcore" years ago, was definitely an "Indie/Garage" move by one of the big players. Not only was it a gimmick but it had legs and ended up being the real deal. It leveled me up! Did they copy and paste from an indie player that had already gone there? Hmmm? Anyone know for sure?
You are 100% correct. I'm going to read about that history, especially since I'm such a fan of the Bones. Good call! I lived in Europe for many years during HS and College and Blizzard was much more popular over there so I considered it "mainstream" from the get-go along w/ some other popular brands that I never saw here, like my Kienzlers and a few others that never made it to the U.S. market. Thanks Phil I'll check that out. :beercheer:
As the story goes, Arne Backstrom was driving back to his home in Tahoe after a big mountain competition with his buddy Clem. He was talking about the feeling he didn't like about rocker and "wouldn't it be nice if we could eliminate the hinge feeling where the rocker is forced into the ski during construction and allow the rocker to form more naturally"
He went to the engineers at Tec/Blizz and they decided to flip the core upside down to form the rocker first.

Clem still has Arne's first flipcore skis on a wall in his home.
 

Yo Momma

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As the story goes, Arne Backstrom was driving back to his home in Tahoe after a big mountain competition with his buddy Clem. He was talking about the feeling he didn't like about rocker and "wouldn't it be nice if we could eliminate the hinge feeling where the rocker is forced into the ski during construction and allow the rocker to form more naturally"
He went to the engineers at Tec/Blizz and they decided to flip the core upside down to form the rocker first.

Clem still has Arne's first flipcore skis on a wall in his home.
What year was that?
 

Philpug

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What year was that?
The first Flipcore skis were released for the 2011 or 12 year. Arne's ski was the Bondacious. IIRC, there has been a re release of the original Bodacious since.
 

Tricia

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What year was that?
The first Flipcore skis were released for the 2011 or 12 year. Arne's ski was the Bondacious. IIRC, there has been a re release of the original Bodacious since.
I know Arne died in 2010, but I can imagine the engineering started a year or two before that.
 

Yo Momma

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I know Arne died in 2010, but I can imagine the engineering started a year or two before that.
That's what I was wondering! :) So he was most likely working out that flipcore core concept in his head in the mid 2000's. I first bought the Bones in 2011 or was it 2012 when they were first
released? I also picked up the Cochise but I ended up selling bec it was WAAAY too much ski for me. The Bones were heavy but a nice transition from the Volkl Mantra's I was skiing the years prior. The Cochise were much too heavy for my style.
 

Philpug

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That's what I was wondering! :) So he was most likely working out that flipcore core concept in his head in the mid 2000's. I first bought the Bones in 2011 or was it 2012 when they were first
released? I also picked up the Cochise but I ended up selling bec it was WAAAY too much ski for me. The Bones were heavy but a nice transition from the Volkl Mantra's I was skiing the years prior. The Cochise were much too heavy for my style.
The Cochise wa way too much for many skiers styles yet a lot of skiers bought them,
 

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