Boutique/indy skis

[Wasatchman]

After placing an order for a pair of Praxis GPOs, and seeing @Yo Momma post of the Moment Wildcat, and @blackke17 loves his 4frnt Hoji, it got me thinking - anybody have a chance to demo a wide variety of boutique/indy brands?

Blister is the only source I know of for reviews of boutiques. They don't like the Praxis GPOs so much, but they do seem to have a decent cult following, ski preference can be personal, and factory tunes can make a difference to testers. Given the sale and the fact I like a surfy skis in pow, they are made in the USA which appeals to me, and commentary by @Ron and @jmeb , I decided to take a shot on the Praxis GPO.

Blister isn't the end all be all, so curious people's thoughts on boutique brands and if the boutique they own is that much better than mass brand or a big part is having a niche brand the masses aren't on. Or how about versus the premium brands such as Kastle or Stockli?

So @Yo Momma , I know you love those Moment Bibby/ Wildcats, but have you tried anything by other boutiques?

Fire away. I can't contribute any thoughts unfortunately since the Praxis will be the first boutique/indy ski I will have owned or tried and that will have to wait for next season.

 

[Yo Momma]

Interesting thread... I'm not lovin' the Wildcats yet. They have yet to make it into my grubby little paws! I've never tried them. I do own a set of J Skis which I reviewed on another thread. Also the old version of the Line Sick Day 110's and I sold a set of pre rocker SkiLogic's.... I'll say more and give comparisons to mainstream skis as this thread develops.

 

[Philpug]

While we do get into some indy brands along with boutiques here, I am not sure where you will find as much information on Renoun and Augment anwyere else. I would say www.exoticskis.com is the foremost best source for smaller brands.

 

[jmeb]

I like indy skis. If I'm being honest, they aren't any "better" on average than the big houses which have tons of R&D and typically very good build practices. What I've found they are better at is giving an honest opinion when you call/message them about what ski is likely to work for you. And to be sure, they are mostly soft-snow oriented.

Indy Skis I've owned/own and am happy to give thoughts on. Skied a bunch more through friends/demos.

• Praxis: Yeti. 182. Flex 3. Pry from my cold dead hands. Go to touring ski up to 6" of fresh. Own.
• Praxis: Freeride. 184. Flex 4. Didn't fit in quiver. Go fast. Intuitive. Sold.
• Praxis: 9D8. 192?. Flex 4. I am not a strong enough skier. Sold
• Praxis: Protest. 186. Flex 3. Makes me feel like McConkey. Magic in 3D. Own.
• PMGear (defunct, does some collabs with Praxis now): Lhasa Pow. 186. Hybrid layup. Lovely pow ski. I like pintails! Meh on the groomed. Setup for touring. Own.
• Moment: Bibby (aka the Wildcat). 184. My first pow ski and boy is it a good one. My go-to resort pow ski for anything up to 10" (when the Protest comes out.) Own.
• Moment: Deathwish. 184. So good I own two pairs -- one for thrashing, one for backup. Probably the ski I spend the most hours on. Own x2.
• Moment: PB&J. 182?. A mini-Bibby. I don't dig the bibby shape/profile as much on a harder snow biased ski (which is why I've advocated for a skinny Deathwish.) Sold.
• Down: CD104L. 182. Really nice ski that came with a bad tune. A touring ski (~1550g) that holds its own inbounds. Stout tail. Own.
• Hinterland: Fennec. 181. A ski design I'd wanted for a while (like an updated Volkl Karma). Go to for bump days or ripping around groomed with friends/family. (Just wish it had a 1/2 layer of titanal to smooth things out, or heavier glass?). Own.

 

[Wasatchman]

I like indy skis. If I'm being honest, they aren't any "better" on average than the big houses which have tons of R&D and typically very good build practices. What I've found they are better at is giving an honest opinion when you call/message them about what ski is likely to work for you. And to be sure, they are mostly soft-snow oriented.

Indy Skis I've owned/own and am happy to give thoughts on. Skied a bunch more through friends/demos.

• Praxis: Yeti. 182. Flex 3. Pry from my cold dead hands. Go to touring ski up to 6" of fresh. Own.
• Praxis: Freeride. 184. Flex 4. Didn't fit in quiver. Go fast. Intuitive. Sold.
• Praxis: 9D8. 192?. Flex 4. I am not a strong enough skier. Sold
• Praxis: Protest. 186. Flex 3. Makes me feel like McConkey. Magic in 3D. Own.
• PMGear (defunct, does some collabs with Praxis now): Lhasa Pow. 186. Hybrid layup. Lovely pow ski. I like pintails! Meh on the groomed. Setup for touring. Own.
• Moment: Bibby (aka the Wildcat). 184. My first pow ski and boy is it a good one. My go-to resort pow ski for anything up to 10" (when the Protest comes out.) Own.
• Moment: Deathwish. 184. So good I own two pairs -- one for thrashing, one for backup. Probably the ski I spend the most hours on. Own x2.
• Moment: PB&J. 182?. A mini-Bibby. I don't dig the bibby shape/profile as much on a harder snow biased ski (which is why I've advocated for a skinny Deathwish.) Sold.
• Down: CD104L. 182. Really nice ski that came with a bad tune. A touring ski (~1550g) that holds its own inbounds. Stout tail. Own.
• Hinterland: Fennec. 181. A ski design I'd wanted for a while (like an updated Volkl Karma). Go to for bump days or ripping around groomed with friends/family. (Just wish it had a 1/2 layer of titanal to smooth things out, or heavier glass?). Own.

Nice summary!! Since you like a lot of Praxis skis, surprised you haven't tried the GPO, but I guess Moment has that part of your quiver.

That's saying something that you own 2 Deathwishes!!

 

[jmeb]

Nice summary!! Since you like a lot of Praxis skis, surprised you haven't tried the GPO, but I guess Moment has that part of your quiver.

Full disclosure -- I own almost all of these skis second hand. I buy what comes across my plate that I can justify. GPOs are harder to find used which is a good thing.

The person I bought the Lhasas from sold them because they bought GPOs. Which to him (and others I've read) are a refined take on the Lhasa design.

That's saying something that you own 2 Deathwishes!!

Another disclosure -- first pair was $50 flat which I then scrounged some STH14s for for $75. Second pair I bought as a set of three skis, sold the other two and bindings from the DW to fund a good demo binding and made the skis effectively free. It was some leg work (and mount work), but total cost of 2nd almost-minty pair of '14/15 DW was a $40 surplus.

That said, I do love them. They are just the right flex for my ski style, size and power.

 

[Stacks]

After placing an order for a pair of Praxis GPOs, and seeing @Yo Momma post of the Moment Wildcat, and @blackke17 loves his 4frnt Hoji, it got me thinking - anybody have a chance to demo a wide variety of boutique/indy brands?

Blister is the only source I know of for reviews of boutiques. They don't like the Praxis GPOs so much, but they do seem to have a decent cult following, ski preference can be personal, and factory tunes can make a difference to testers. Given the sale and the fact I like a surfy skis in pow, they are made in the USA which appeals to me, and commentary by @Ron and @jmeb , I decided to take a shot on the Praxis GPO.

Blister isn't the end all be all, so curious people's thoughts on boutique brands and if the boutique they own is that much better than mass brand or a big part is having a niche brand the masses aren't on. Or how about versus the premium brands such as Kastle or Stockli?

So @Yo Momma , I know you love those Moment Bibby/ Wildcats, but have you tried anything by other boutiques?

Fire away. I can't contribute any thoughts unfortunately since the Praxis will be the first boutique/indy ski I will have owned or tried and that will have to wait for next season.

Since you're interested in boutique/custom skis might be worth checking out these guys.

Kingswood Skis | Hand made in New Zealand

Kingswood Skis are built to last. Hand made for you. Designed to make the best days on snow even better.

www.kingswoodskis.com

 

[Talisman]

Lots of great skis being made now from large and small manufacturers. Durability is a deciding factor for me as local conditions typically have lots of rocks. ON3P ski bases are amazingly durable despite some of the geology I expose them to.

 

[BC.]

After placing an order for a pair of Praxis GPOs, and seeing @Yo Momma post of the Moment Wildcat, and @blackke17 loves his 4frnt Hoji, it got me thinking - anybody have a chance to demo a wide variety of boutique/indy brands?

Blister is the only source I know of for reviews of boutiques. They don't like the Praxis GPOs so much, but they do seem to have a decent cult following, ski preference can be personal, and factory tunes can make a difference to testers. Given the sale and the fact I like a surfy skis in pow, they are made in the USA which appeals to me, and commentary by @Ron and @jmeb , I decided to take a shot on the Praxis GPO.

Blister isn't the end all be all, so curious people's thoughts on boutique brands and if the boutique they own is that much better than mass brand or a big part is having a niche brand the masses aren't on. Or how about versus the premium brands such as Kastle or Stockli?

So @Yo Momma , I know you love those Moment Bibby/ Wildcats, but have you tried anything by other boutiques?

Fire away. I can't contribute any thoughts unfortunately since the Praxis will be the first boutique/indy ski I will have owned or tried and that will have to wait for next season.

2019 ON3P Wren108’s...1season...trips to Jackson/Targhee/Mammoth.

Liked them, did everything I needed them to do...but I liked Katanas better, so I sold them/too much overlap.

I would buy ON3P again....excellent product, construction, communication.

*Moments are next....extremely interested in their product.

 

[Yo Momma]

I like indy skis. If I'm being honest, they aren't any "better" on average than the big houses which have tons of R&D and typically very good build practices. What I've found they are better at is giving an honest opinion when you call/message them about what ski is likely to work for you. And to be sure, they are mostly soft-snow oriented.

Indy Skis I've owned/own and am happy to give thoughts on. Skied a bunch more through friends/demos.

• Praxis: Yeti. 182. Flex 3. Pry from my cold dead hands. Go to touring ski up to 6" of fresh. Own.
• Praxis: Freeride. 184. Flex 4. Didn't fit in quiver. Go fast. Intuitive. Sold.
• Praxis: 9D8. 192?. Flex 4. I am not a strong enough skier. Sold
• Praxis: Protest. 186. Flex 3. Makes me feel like McConkey. Magic in 3D. Own.
• PMGear (defunct, does some collabs with Praxis now): Lhasa Pow. 186. Hybrid layup. Lovely pow ski. I like pintails! Meh on the groomed. Setup for touring. Own.
• Moment: Bibby (aka the Wildcat). 184. My first pow ski and boy is it a good one. My go-to resort pow ski for anything up to 10" (when the Protest comes out.) Own.
• Moment: Deathwish. 184. So good I own two pairs -- one for thrashing, one for backup. Probably the ski I spend the most hours on. Own x2.
• Moment: PB&J. 182?. A mini-Bibby. I don't dig the bibby shape/profile as much on a harder snow biased ski (which is why I've advocated for a skinny Deathwish.) Sold.
• Down: CD104L. 182. Really nice ski that came with a bad tune. A touring ski (~1550g) that holds its own inbounds. Stout tail. Own.
• Hinterland: Fennec. 181. A ski design I'd wanted for a while (like an updated Volkl Karma). Go to for bump days or ripping around groomed with friends/family. (Just wish it had a 1/2 layer of titanal to smooth things out, or heavier glass?). Own.

What is your size wgt hgt and style?

 

[fatbob]

I like indy skis. If I'm being honest, they aren't any "better" on average than the big houses which have tons of R&D and typically very good build practices. What I've found they are better at is giving an honest opinion when you call/message them about what ski is likely to work for you. And to be sure, they are mostly soft-snow oriented.

This holds true for me. With an indie you are more likely to get to speak to the skis actual designer or they might literally be setting you up at the demo stand. Plus they are less likely to be deploying the tsunami of marketing BS that the big brands do - graphene, basalt cores, plasma edges, KERS chips etc and just tell you things straight. And for a while when it came to soft snow skis they definitely were more progressive and offering new things in design than the big boys.

 

[jmeb]

What is your size wgt hgt and style?

- 6'2"
- 175# prior to gear
- Not exactly sure how to answer style. I like to turn but I am not race trained. I spend most time skiing off piste when possible. Like leaving the ground but not for too long.

 

[Yo Momma]

Hmmm? At what point, production or otherwise is an "Indy" ski in "big brand" category?

 

[Yo Momma]

- 6'2"
- 175# prior to gear
- Not exactly sure how to answer style. I like to turn but I am not race trained. I spend most time skiing off piste when possible. Like leaving the ground but not for too long.

What do you think of the 190 Wildcat at your size? Just curious as to your impressions on 184 vs 190 as compared to the Blister review breakdown?

 

[jmeb]

190 is totally do-able and there are times I wished I had it as it'd be a better compliment to the 184 Deathwish. If I skied a lot of trees I think the 184 would make more sense, but for open alpine skiing the 190 is really good and not too much. I imagine the newer gen 190s ski even more nimbly due to reduced weight.

 

[David Chaus]

Hmmm? At what point, production or otherwise is an "Indy" ski in "big brand" category?

You mean, like Armada? Or DPS? Liberty?

I think one criteria for me is when I see a brand appear as a pro form option on the PSIA website. Then for sure it’s trending mainstream. Except for the fact that DPS available through PSIA, so nevermind my thought process.

 

[Wasatchman]

This holds true for me. With an indie you are more likely to get to speak to the skis actual designer or they might literally be setting you up at the demo stand. Plus they are less likely to be deploying the tsunami of marketing BS that the big brands do - graphene, basalt cores, plasma edges, KERS chips etc and just tell you things straight. And for a while when it came to soft snow skis they definitely were more progressive and offering new things in design than the big boys.

Yeah, was definitely cool to be able to speak with Keith at Praxis, to review which model I'd probably like best. The $499 price preseason price allows you to adjust stiffness versus the base ski model. Definitely the most personal experience I've ever had buying skis.

The downside is not really being able to demo, but for $499 to be semi-customizable and getting to speak with the designer, and supporting indy ski manufacturer in Tahoe, was worth the try for me.

 

[David Chaus]

Before I skied two Heads.

Now, I have a Renoun and an ON3P. I’m perfectly happy with both, and each offers some performance characterists that are better (or different than) mainstream brands that I have demoed. I would totally buy them again.

Now between the two, ON3P are built better. The bases and topsheets are impressively durable.

As far as being accessible, yes, they return emails when you have questions, and I’ve called and been able to chat for a bit with Scott Andrus (the founder/owner). So, very cool, and I feel good about doing business with them.

 

[jmeb]

You mean, like Armada? Or DPS? Liberty?

I think one criteria for me is when I see a brand appear as a pro form option on the PSIA website. Then for sure it’s trending mainstream. Except for the fact that DPS available through PSIA, so nevermind my thought process.

I think once a brand is bought by a major corporation (Amer bought Armada) then they are pretty clearly no longer an "indy".

I think there is also a difference -- not in quality or innovation -- but still a difference between brands that design their own skis, and brands that design and build their own skis.

Correct any wrongs here...but some examples:

Designs (contracts out builds)
- 4FRNT (except Whiteroom builds)
- Liberty
- DPS (except some high-end skis)
- Black Crows
- J Skis

Designs and Builds:
- Moment
- Praxis
- On3p
- Folsom
- Sego

 

[jmeb]

ON3P ski bases are amazingly durable despite some of the geology I expose them to.

It's not rocket science. They are the only ones I'm aware of except J Skis that use 1.8mm thick 4001 Durasurf bases. Most everyone else is on 1.2 (weight savings!) to 1.4mm. The 1.4 is 25% less base depth.