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Boot flex and spring skiing

GregK

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Haven’t seen a pic of the rear of your boots it mentions in that guide about 2 bolts and their position. Check they are in the 100 flex position and their tightness. Your issue could be the two bolts are just loosening over time which mine do on my Atomic Hawx Ultra 130. I put a small socket wrench with an Allen bolt bit on the back 2 screws and Torx bit on the side canting adjustment bolt them about every 10 days of skiing to check for tightness. Not sure if your Ankle bolt can be adjusted on those boots or not.

Have heard of other skiers with these boots having missing bolts as they loosened so much and fell out. They though the flex was really wimpy and then saw bolts totally missing! I checked mine and sure enough, they were all loose. Mentioned this to friends with boots from other companies and their same screws were loose too.

Might be worth a check.
 
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zircon

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Smaller???? :eek::eek::eek: Any smaller and we're out of the realm of adult sized boots. The fitter (who was Phil at Boston Ski & Tennis according to the writing on the bottom of my footbed) said the shell fit looked like the right size. There's about 1.3 of my tiny fingers or 1 normal sized dude's fingers width behind the heel with the foot all the way forward.
 

LiquidFeet

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OP is 5'5" wearing thick socks and 125-135 pounds depending on the month and motivation level ;)

Another thought I just had is it's possible the boot is just too wide in the heel and the softening under spring conditions is proving it. I didn't know much when I got them, and the shop that sold them to me was more sales than fitting (they insisted nobody really needs a footbed :rolleyes:). The shop that subsequently did a full fitting (a fairly well respected local boot fitter) with footbeds/heel lift/shell modifications has taken up some room in the heel for me. So maybe I feel so unstable because the softer spring flex is highlighting that the heel hold isn't where it should be? Hence the stepping out of the boot sensation.

You may have a high volume boot -- and a low volume foot. If it feels like you are stepping out of the boot, if a real bootfitter (not boot seller) has felt the need to do stuff to it to stabilize your heel, if you think the heel hold is iffy, then you probably need a different boot. I'm guessing that the shell does not match your anatomy.

Boot fit depends on three dimensions, length, height over the foot and in front of the ankle (volume), and width. The two things recreational skiers usually pay attention to when they buy boots are comfort and length. That's not precise enough to secure the foot in the boot if you're going to ski spring slop. Are you also interested in skiing bumps? Same thing. Your issue may not be the flex but the fit.

Consider going to a real bootfitter to buy a new boot, and insist on a performance fit. Insist. Go in October/November next year when they have the new stock in place. Choose a shop that has a ton of boots on the wall and a race section with a bootfitter that works with the racers. Make an appointment before going to see that bootfitter so you don't end up with someone else.

I say this because it sounds like you have a super small foot and want to ski all conditions. Be firm in insisting on a performance fit. The bootfitter should measure your foot in length, width and around the ankle too. Then when checking each boot you try, the liner should be removed and you should be putting your foot in there with only the shell. This is a shell-check. If the bootfitter does not do a shell-check, maybe you are in the wrong shop.

Best of luck.
 
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François Pugh

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Smaller???? :eek::eek::eek: Any smaller and we're out of the realm of adult sized boots. The fitter (who was Phil at Boston Ski & Tennis according to the writing on the bottom of my footbed) said the shell fit looked like the right size. There's about 1.3 of my tiny fingers or 1 normal sized dude's fingers width behind the heel with the foot all the way forward.
Not shorter, more narrow to fit the heel with more work stretching the front.
 

Tom K.

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I used the Expert/Racer Boosters (next level down from the WC version) on my old Rossignol Radical WC 130 boots (basically, Gold-Orange & White Lange RS 130 shells with a Rossi liner). The Boosters seemed to make it easier for me to flex the boots. Also improved the evenness & immediacy of the flex. Definitely did not make the boots stiffer for me.

Check that, but there is a HUGE difference when stepping up to the World Cup Boosters. When I first made the leap to Boosters, I started with the Experts and found them far too soft.

Worth knowing: It is super simple to convert the WC to Expert, but impossible to go in the other direction. No price difference, so go WC.
 
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zircon

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You may have a high volume boot -- and a low volume foot. If it feels like you are stepping out of the boot, if a real bootfitter (not boot seller) has felt the need to do stuff to it to stabilize your heel, if you think the heel hold is iffy, then you probably need a different boot. I'm guessing that the shell does not match your anatomy.

Looks like it's a 102mm last, so almost certainly a high volume boot. I feel like it would make sense for boot manufacturers to realize there are people with wide, but skinny feet. It's kind of both a stepping out and an excessive flex, because I definitely feel it in the achilles tendon of the ankle with normal dorsiflexion and the stepping out sensation is better on that foot too.

Boot fit depends on three dimensions, length, height over the foot and in front of the ankle (volume), and width. The two things recreational skiers usually pay attention to when they buy boots are comfort and length. That's not precise enough to secure the foot in the boot if you're going to ski spring slop. Are you also interested in skiing bumps? Same thing. Your issue may not be the flex but the fit.

Guilty. I was so happy to be out of a 20 year old junior race boot (apparently they were already well used when they came to my cousin before me) that I skied in with my toes curled, that all the other nuances escaped me. The guys who sold me the boot tried me first in a Nordica Speedmachine, which thinking back was much better in the heel through midfoot and deeply unpleasant in the forefoot. Significantly cheaper too, being old stock. Maybe I should have bought that instead. And yes, I've been spending a lot of time trying to become proficient at skiing bumps. The worst is the slushy spring bumps.

Consider going to a real bootfitter to buy a new boot, and insist on a performance fit. Insist. Go in October/November next year when they have the new stock in place. Choose a shop that has a ton of boots on the wall and a race section with a bootfitter that works with the racers. Make an appointment before going to see that bootfitter so you don't end up with someone else.

I say this because it sounds like you have a super small foot and want to ski all conditions. Be firm in insisting on a performance fit. The bootfitter should measure your foot in length, width and around the ankle too. Then when checking each boot you try, the liner should be removed and you should be putting your foot in there with only the shell. This is a shell-check. If the bootfitter does not do a shell-check, maybe you are in the wrong shop.

Best of luck.

I took the boots to a real bootfitter for footbeds after the first guys said nobody needs footbeds and he spent about 90 minutes measuring things. Boot sales shop did not do a shell fit, but the real bootfitter did and seemed to think he could work with it. Although I guess I could have undersold my ambitions a bit? And yeah, you're right I'm a generally small guy in a 24.5 boot which already rules out most adult performance models from manufacturers like Head and K2 (to name a few). Unfortunately, it seems like the narrower the boot, the more $$$ so this is likely not in the budget for next season.

Check that, but there is a HUGE difference when stepping up to the World Cup Boosters. When I first made the leap to Boosters, I started with the Experts and found them far too soft.

Worth knowing: It is super simple to convert the WC to Expert, but impossible to go in the other direction. No price difference, so go WC.

Dumbest question: If one were to bring this idea up with the boot fitter, what would one say? Sounds like it could be a low risk experiment for flex vs. shape and maybe an improvement on the flex side of things.

This review on Newschoolers seems to think that adding a third bolt in the spine will stiffen things up as well, but they're the only source of that information on the internet so who knows.
 

Tom K.

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Dumbest question: If one were to bring this idea up with the boot fitter, what would one say? Sounds like it could be a low risk experiment for flex vs. shape and maybe an improvement on the flex side of things.

This review on Newschoolers seems to think that adding a third bolt in the spine will stiffen things up as well, but they're the only source of that information on the internet so who knows.

All three boot fitters I know personally use Booster Straps themselves, so I doubt you'd get a bad reception to the idea of trying a set.

A third bolt will stiffen things up. A little Google-Fu will usually locate a manufacturer's document of some kind that explains how to do it, and how much stiffness will be added.
 
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zircon

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The manufacturer's document that @eok found mentions reducing the stiffness by moving the two existing bolts to different positions, but nothing about increasing it. The women's models have two holes and having both bolts in brings it to the stated flex, so I don't see why the third bolt hole in the unisex models should be any different. According to the document, two bolts in the lower two holes = the flex on the label.
 
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zircon

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Update: frustration. Tried to make an appointment with the fitter to troubleshoot and their season is over and the only remaining times conflict with my work schedule :(

Anyone New England-y: do you have opinions on the on-mountain bootfitting staff at Wachusett? Or would adding a third professional into the mix now make things worse?
 

Josh Matta

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there isnt much a boot fitter can do to make a boot stiffer....
 
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zircon

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Understood. Just looking to brainstorm putting a bandaid on the heel hold issue in particular, which yesterday was nearly unskiable in spring+refrozen crud in the afternoon.
 
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zircon

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Bumping this thread back from the dead with a gear brag.

After blowing all my cash on travel the 19-20 season and sitting out 20-21 for COVID, I finally went to see the boot guy today and... walked out with with a pair of Head Raptor WCR 120s. I think I might be in love. We went down to a 23 shell because, to quote him, "your feet are as narrow as they come," and it's still somehow the most comfortable boot I've ever worn out of the box. Vice-like heel hold once we dropped my footbeds in and enough toe width. Going to ski them for a few days and then see if any work needs to be done.

IMG_7411.jpeg
 

Henry

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Good call on the new boots. Some top boot guys say that 100 flex is the lowest one should start with. For the cuff straps, whether stock or Booster, wrap them around the cuff shell in the back but not the front, in the front wrap them around just the liner. For your new boots, ski a couple of days and plan on returning for a fine tuning of the fit. The liner molds to your feet--or your feet mold to the liner. Expect some adjustments to make things better.

Feet are, well, different. I know a guy who describes his feet like a pancake--wide & flat. I know a guy who describes his feet like a banana--narrow and arched. And I know a guy who describes his feet like a carpenter's pencil--narrow and flat. Each needs a boot that is a pretty close fit out of the box and able to be adapted for those feet. Also note that ankle and lower leg shape matters. A skinny lower leg needs more forward tilt in the boot cuff. A hefty lower leg needs less, takes the place of a cuff spoiler...the lack of flesh, or abundance of flesh makes a big difference in the stance.
 
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zircon

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For your new boots, ski a couple of days and plan on returning for a fine tuning of the fit. The liner molds to your feet--or your feet mold to the liner. Expect some adjustments to make things better.
This is the plan. I’m betting they’re going to need a tiny stretch for a sixth toe bump. And we may want to go through liquid fit to take up a little more room in the right ankle, but the fitter wanted me to make sure this is My Boot before taking further steps.

For now, just walking around the living room, it’s magic not to have to crank the buckles all the way. And weirdly, they’ve got a lot more forward lean and I have limited dorsiflexion, but I can easily feel the front of the cuff which I couldn’t with the old boots?? And not being able to completely twist my foot inside the boot before it tips??? Amazing.
 

Slim

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You can try a pair of these.
it will defintely make the forward flex stiffer. And if it doesn’t help, you can just take them off again, no damage to your boots.


F1492871-99FC-4B32-B40F-E8B7AA379C2E.png
 

Slim

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Edit, just saw, after reading most posts, I missed the last ones on my small screen, haha.
Anyway, still good to get the Pulse tongues out there for anyone who needs them.
 

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