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Individual Review Boot Doc World Cup Foam Liners

Philpug

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Boot Doc offers one of the premier options in aftermarket liners. When a skier is looking for that extra degree of performance, it usually comes at the cost of comfort or warmth, and often both. Boot Doc accomplishes this tough task by making a high-performance liner that is still warm and comfortable.
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I skied in a Flexon for 25 or so years and then moved to the Dalbello Krypton. The common denominators in these two boots were that they had three buckles and a moldable Thermoflex liner. When I moved to Tahoe a few years back, I went to a four-buckle boot and a traditional liner in the Tecnica Inferno 130 series. I skied that boot for a few years, which also included a year in a Nordica Patron Pro. I liked the way the boots skied, but the liners were the weak link and broke down after 50 to 70 days. I transitioned to a Head lace-up liner, which worked well. I never really considered a foam liner, although we did carry the Nordica foams at Start Haus. When Tecnica introduced the Mach 1 to replace the Infernos, it used the very good CAS liner, which broke down very little in the 100+ days I skied them. As stock liners go, it is one of the best.

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Setup and molding: Bud Heishman has been so impressed by the new Boot Doc foam liners that he offers them in his shop and is also a distributor for the brand. For our testing, he suggested that I try the World Cup liner. The foaming process begins not much differently than molding an Intuition. You start with toe caps and then add padding in areas where you might have bones protruding, like navicular or styloid; in my case, the navicular needed extra attention. Even though the toe box has a neoprene pocket, we still used a toe cap that wrapped past the first and fifth metatarsals. Once the foot was prepped, we put my custom footbed in the liner and then a thin bag over my foot. Bud had to prep the shell to allow the release hoses to come out the front dam, so he used his floor clamp/binding setup. Once the liner was in the shell, I was able to get into it.

While I put my foot into the shell, Bud mixed the foaming solution. This is where the process did get a bit uncomfortable: as Bud forced the foam solution in through the rear hoses, I could feel the pressure building around the foot. Bud told me to roll my ankles and move my foot to allow the solution to work through. I was to keep doing that until the solution started coming out the front hoses. Once that happened, it took just minutes for the foam solution to expand, settle, and firm up. We repeated the process for the other foot. Bud did mention that the foam needs to off gas for a few days to settle in. Within hours of the process, the liner is ready to ski.

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I have been skiing these liners in my Lange RS140s and not the Tecnica Mach 1 130s I molded them in. Yes, this is a bit unusual. For some reason, I couldn’t adjust to the Langes with their stock lace liner, but once I installed the foam BD World Cups, the Langes are now perfect, even though the liner was molded in the Tecnica. I liked the liner in the Tecnicas, but I love it in the Langes.

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On the snow: Performance is just what I would expect from a foam liner: precise. What I did not expect was how comfortable they are or how perfect the heel pocket is; the other area that really surprised me was the warmth. I expected a foam liner to be more like my old lace-ups, performance at the cost of comfort, but these Boot Docs actually have both. Even though I installed Thermic heaters in these, I could tell the liners have a level of warmth that I have not experienced since my old days in a Thermoflex liner.

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At this point I have about two dozen days in these Boot Doc WC liners; in my Lange shells, I could not be happier with the warmth and the overall fit. While I have used lace-ups before, I have these set up in the shell like a regular liner and they work just fine. What is most impressive is the heel: I have never had a heel pocket fit as perfectly as these.
  • Who is it for? Someone whose shells are still good but have packed-out liners, and who is looking for the best balance of comfort and performance.
  • Who is it not for? Skiers with a low tolerance for pain: the fit process is tough.
  • Insider tip: Less is more. Just because there is a whole tube of foam doesn't mean you have to use it all. And it is still not a substitute for being in the wrong size shell.
Thank you, Boot Doc and Bud Heishman at Snowind Sports! Please also look at the Boot Doc discussion going on here.
 

AmyPJ

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Can you compare the overall stiffness of these vs. say the Intuition Pro Tongue? I have the Pro Tongues and they are too stiff, meaning too precise for me and my meddling intervanced ways.
 

babanff

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Do you think these are better than Intuition Pro wraps at taking up volume in the calf? I have super skinny and high calves and struggle with finding liners that are thick enough, but also have good snow feel. I've tried the FX race liner and it was too thin in the cuff. I hate spoilers so need a thick cuff. Power wraps have been okay, but not a huge fan of the feel of wrap liners in overlap boots. Plus they're too thick for my wicked high arch and wide forefoot (my feet are 6.5EE in women's street shoes... I literally have flippers for feet).
 
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Philpug

Philpug

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Do you think these are better than Intuition Pro wraps at taking up volume in the calf? I have super skinny and high calves and struggle with finding liners that are thick enough, but also have good snow feel. I've tried the FX race liner and it was too thin in the cuff. I hate spoilers so need a thick cuff. Power wraps have been okay, but not a huge fan of the feel of wrap liners in overlap boots. Plus they're too thick for my wicked high arch and wide forefoot (my feet are 6.5EE in women's street shoes... I literally have flippers for feet).
I think they are more solid than the Intution Pro but it still comes down to the skiers need and application. As far as taking up volume, that isn't a liners job, the cuff of the shell still needs to be withing reasonable proximity to that skinny calf. The Liner can only do so much. Those comments were for readers, when we reply threads, we sometimes will answer not only the people asking the question, but the hundreds of other eyes reading the thread. Now...in your case Tam, these could pick up where the Intution Pro's left off. You might still need some extra padding but you will absolutely get a more positive repsonce from these over the ID options. As far as not liking the spoilers, could it have been that they pushed you forward? There are many ways to take up volume. The instep issue will need to be addressed of course and that might be the reason to consider the foam tongue.
 

Ron

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@bud heishman -- Do you know what the former Freeski version is called now or was it replaced? If replaced, which model is closest. I assume the "quick foam"

Also, is the World Cup version a thinner liner?

@tam --the "Quick Foam" version may be better than the World Cup
 
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bbinder

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I love my Intuitiions, but these sound very interesting
 

babanff

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As far as not liking the spoilers, could it have been that they pushed you forward? There are many ways to take up volume. The instep issue will need to be addressed of course and that might be the reason to consider the foam tongue.
Thanks Phil. Yes, spoilers make me feel pushed forward. I like my calves to feel like they are getting hugged, not pushed. The wraps have accomplished that, but I prefer the feel of a tongue liner vs a wrap for overlap boots.... tongues have also felt much better in the instep.
 

François Pugh

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Just to add what I recall from when I got foamed liners, I'm not saying foam hasn't changed, but it probably still holds true: you can use a little foam or a lot. More foam makes a denser harder stiffer liner; less foam makes a softer liner with more give to it.
 

bud heishman

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@bud heishman - Can you do a quick "Cage Match" comparison of the World Cup vs the Quick Foam?

Ok, Boot Doc has two different foaming processes. The world cup uses the traditional process with exit tubes on the liner and the foaming process involves the two parts are mixed in a firm bottle by shaking vigorously together for a few seconds then screwed to the intake tubes. Once the chemical reaction begins the foam is pushed via the reaction, into the liners. The World Cup foam is firmer than the Freeski or Quikfoam but still more compliant than some other competition foams of the past. All Boot Docs other liner options use a process where there are no exit tubes rather a gore tex like membrane which permits off gassing but prevents foam from escaping. The process also uses a mixing bottle with accordion pleats allowing the mixture to be pushed into the liner BEFORE the chemical reaction goes off, permitting easy flow around the foot. When the chemical reaction goes off and the foam expands, the boot fitter can feel the pressure pushing back on the compressed bottle and control the volume of foam in the liner using feedback from the skier to their liking. So if the skier wants a softer feel or a firmer feel, they have some control over results. This foam is more suited for the recreational skier rather than the racer. It performs quite well with the added benefit of great comfort, perfect for bird legs, narrow heels, special needs.

How would you compare the Boot Doc to ZipFit Gara or WC?

We carry Zip Fit, BD foams, and Intuition liners in my shop and use them for different needs and desires. The biggest consideration between these two liners is the foam liner is pretty much a one shell deal whereas the Zip Fit will go from shell to shell to shell to shell, remolding to any different internal shell contours. The Zip Fit offers superior heel hold. The benefit of Boot Doc foam is that the foam fill more area along the medial and lateral sides of the foot than the Zip Fit, It fits perfect right away without going through the molding process and break in of the Zip Fit. Many times with tighter shell fits, even the lowest volume Gara, the Zip has too much volume to fit in the shell whereas a foam liner will work better. So in the end if you want the ultimate fit go with the foam, if you want a great long lasting liner which will last 600 skier days and can be transferred between shells and offers great heel hold, go with the Zip Fit. We sell the BD Quik Foam liners for $300 and the WCup for $400, Zip Fits for between $400-500 depending on model.
 

Muleski

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Great info ^^^^.

My BD's are a quickfoam model, which my boot guy felt would be the best solution for my feet, my skiing and my then new RX130 boots. He skied in the same boot, and was in the same liner. Long time friend.

We talked through the firmness issue, and he told me that he felt strongly that he should make them as firm as he could, exactly as Bud H explains. There was a ton of pressure in the process, and a bit of agony. But, I love the result. I think the heel grip and heel pocket is pretty good. Darn good.

My son has a WC liner, and I think it may even have some secret sauce in it. His were foamed in Europe. And were comp'd. Again, as Bud says, firmer. But nothing like the foam of old. BTDT for decades with heavy rock hard foam.

He was really surprised, and loves them. Problem will be that he changes boots fairly frequently. Might not work in another boot. Or he might get lucky.

The comfort factor is huge. I clearly had that on my radar for my latest setup, and will be the first to admit it! I was not looking forward to the plug boot experience Once again. Not skiing 5-6 days a week, getting dialed can be a bit tedious. With the BD's, instant fit. That was a big plus.

I'll be interested to see how long mine will last. Any thoughts there, Bud? Our daughter has about 200 days on hers and doesn't feel like they have broken down at all. Might be good for another long season, which would mean $1 a day? Not bad. She'd like $.50 a day!

Brother has ZipFits that have got to have 500+ days on them, and have been in a lot of different shells. They are remarkably durable. His look close to new. He loves them. I told him to consider the BD, and his reply was "why?"

Either one of these options just blows away 95% of the factory liners out there, particularly as the days add up.

Thanks Bud!
 
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Rod Swank

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Thanks Bud. I am grappling with new Lange RS-140 liners. I just can't get them to fit right. I may just opt for my Zipfit liners as I had to do with the Lange RS-130. The BD foam liners sound quite interesting. I don't know of anyone here in the Mid-Atlantic that has them. I'll have to do a search.
 

bud heishman

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Let me check on dealers in your area and get back to you.
 

Muleski

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@bud heishman, am I wrong of are these now distributed by Wintersteiger? I recently saw a list for the Northeast, and saw a LOT of names. A handful I know, who have been at it a long time. And a lot that I just wasn't that familiar with. Which led me to a Facebook page, with a lot of posts welcoming new dealers.
I would urge an potential customer to try to get a handle on the experience at the shop. There are obviously skills and nuances to the process which guys like you bring to the table.
If I were dealing with a realitive newbie, I would want to know what Plan B is things did not work out that well.
Having said that, I have only heard of problems a couple of times.....
 

Alexzn

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Bud, Phil- Can you also provide a comparison between the relative volume of all these custom liners? Sometimes that could be a defining factor.

For example, the only liner that fits comfortably in my boot shell is a laceup race liner, a lot of the "custom" liners are just too big, even after they are molded, formed, or whatever. So, as much as I love the intuition, they are just not going to work for my shell.
 

DanoT

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Sun Peaks' Elevation Ski & Bike has just become a Boot Doc seller of their heat mold-able footbeds and yesterday was our product knowledge session, put on by Neil from Olympic Cycle and Sports of Vernon B.C.

After the PK was over one of our ski tech guys brought out his Boot Doc liners that he had got comped at a boot fitting course, for Neil to foam. It was the rear tube model with NO front exit tubes and it was foamed into a Full Tilt boot that Neil said was not an idea match for a Boot Doc foam liner. I will get some on hill feed back from my co worker's opinion of his new Boot Doc foam liners and report back.

Neil said his shop charges $375CDN for the Boot Doc liners (non WC) (plus 12% tax in B.C) so the price is comparable to what Bud's shop charges. He also said that sales of foam liners has tapered off a bit in recent years and attributes this to improvements in heat mold-able stock boot liners.

Neil also said that Wintersteiger now owns Boot Doc, but I didn't get exactly when this came about.

Edit: While I only spent a small amount of time examining the Boot Doc liners prior to foaming, I would say that they didn't look particularly bulky to me. Certainly less bulky than the foam liners from my Tecnica TNT boots from 20 years ago.
 
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bud heishman

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Bud, Phil- Can you also provide a comparison between the relative volume of all these custom liners? Sometimes that could be a defining factor.

For example, the only liner that fits comfortably in my boot shell is a laceup race liner, a lot of the "custom" liners are just too big, even after they are molded, formed, or whatever. So, as much as I love the intuition, they are just not going to work for my shell.

I hear ya Alexzn, I am in the same boat. My shell fit is so tight an Intuition or Zip Fit Gara will not fit in my shell but the BD WCup does.
 

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