Bode's Miller unorthodox skiing style.

[Mendieta]

Bode Miller. He is the most successful US male skier, ever. I believe he brings an interesting topic for the Ski School. What's with his style? It's certainly unorthodox, it's below elegant. but it's tremendously courageous and fun. Here is one sample:


Of course, he is running a very scary downhill course. But I've seen many of his races, and whatever the style, he always seems to push it to the limit. A lot of the time he winds up on the back seat. I've heard commentators say that he does it to gain speed. Isthat the case? OR is he just pushing the limits to the point that he sacrifices style for that extra few milliseconds on the turn? I would be really interested to hear opinions on that. Is he great because he is unorthodox? Is is the other way around? Or is he so focused on maximizing his speed that he really pays little attention to perfect form? Or is he great despite being unorthodox, because he's just a tremendous raw talent and he has the ball of a bull? My hunch is that he just pushes himself to his very limit. (I also think you need to be a little crazy to race at those speeds, and he is a bit crazier than the rest ).

To me, the parallel in the basketball world is Steph Curry. A lot of the time I see him shoot and I go "ughhhh". It really looks, technically, rather poor. But he puts that three pointer in, so what do I know. I always thought Ken Thompson is more like the Mikaela Shiffrin of shooting. Perfect technique. Texbook. To be fair, Steph's footwork is phenomenal, perhaps unprecedented. That's what I tell kids when I coach them: study steph's footwork, and Klay's release.

Oh, I know here everyone is very civilized. But in case this disclaimer is needed: I fully understand that Bode is almost as good as it gets. I do understand that he'll out-ski 99.9999% of the people out there. This is just a comparison between him and other elite skiers.

Anyways, having grown up playing competitive basketball, I have a lot more insight that in skiing. In Steph's case, I think his unorthodox shot allows him to have a record-fast release, but I wonder if more standard technique wouldn't have made him even better, as a shooter. In Bode's case, I just don't know. Could he have been even more successful with more standard technique?

 

[Monique]

I know nothing about basketball, but I listened to an interview that made a compelling argument about a more effective but less aesthetically pleasing ummm .. I think free throw technique. Some great players learned it, then didn't use it because ... it wasn't done.

Possible parallels.

 

[Mendieta]

I know nothing about basketball, but I listened to an interview that made a compelling argument about a more effective but less aesthetically pleasing ummm .. I think free throw technique. Some great players learned it, then didn't use it because ... it wasn't done.

Possible parallels.

Definitely parallels. The body position used as part of the free throw technique is strikingly similar to the "athletic stance" in skiing. Now, riding the back of the ski is fairly dangerous: really hard to control balance and direction. Actually, some of Bode's crashes come after falling to the back seat and waving arms out of control (that's how I ski, btw, but at 1/10th of the speed, lol). But most of the time you see him recover and perhaps a commentator arguing that he does that to gain speed. Go figure!

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Didn't see any backseating in that video

 

[Monique]

I don't know enough about performance skiing to comment on the question, but I will say that a number of smart, high level instructors say that skiing is a series of recoveries.

 

[Mendieta]

Didn't see any backseating in that video

Maybe in this one?

I am not sure if 'backseat' is the right term, but a lot of the time he seems to be balanced towards the back, while most racers tend to be more centered. Cheers!

 

[tromano]

At which part of the video do you think he is backseat?

 

[tromano]

@Mendieta you may want to read this http://www.epicski.com/t/99527/reconciling-foot-squirt-with-foragonal-movements

 

[Muleski]

One could write a novel on this subject, and I won't.

I remember watching Bode train when he was about 16, standing with three other guys. Two were coaches, one his coach. I had been told by his coach to watch him only from the knees down. The non/coach made the soon to be standard "That kid's a wild man...." comment. He was watching his upper body.

What I saw was a kid with really long levers who had tremendous ankle flexion and pressured the ski tip to tail through the turn. He skied an incredibly tight line, had a very quick switch and generated so much speed. I was impressed. And I don't think he skied a clean training run.

Move forward two years, and I'm watching him train GS, the week before Nationals, and I've been told to watch. This was when he was just dialing in the K2 fours. And it was eye popping to see how cleanly he carved EVERY turn. And he was just getting started. I was in awe.

For a number of years, Bode was ahead of the curve. He skied a tighter line than anybody. He began to figure out the whole high edge angle thing, tipping the ski, and he would shift his hips back during the turn, bending the tails in a tight arc, A tighter turn and more direct line than anybody. It also made for an incredibly quick transition. Skiers had just not used the tail in the same methodical way. In a large part due to the equipment breakthrough. He was seriously head of the curve with new technology. And man could he bend a ski.

It would look like he was suddenly "back seat." Not my understanding. Part of the problem was that Bode would very often generate too much speed. Not because of some old school straight lining it.....because of his turn shape, how deep he took the turn. You watch video of Ligery in his early WC tears, and they look very similar. The hips move back, the tails get pressured. Arc is tight, super fast transition. And he was carrying amazing speed. Euro coaches were taking a lot of video of Bode, as they later did with Ligety.

Bode has been quoted a ton as saying that he was not that talented, so he always had to take huge risk. I call BS on that. He is a phenomenal athlete. I just think he took great pleasure in pushing the envelope. He was also one of the classic self-coached guys.

One of my friends, who I think knows the facts well told me that Bode was genius. He (and his coaches) had determined at one point that on really steep hills, it was literally impossible for him to make a series of perfect turns, as he'd generate too much speed. His touch and comfort level was such that he would always rip off a left footer, with a perfect tight arc, then on his right footer, he'd use his touch to adjust his turn shape, maybe slide a tiny bit, adjust his edge angle, etc. Just enough. His skis would be tuned differently. Razor sharp and big angle for the left footers. Less on the right to enable the feathering. It's not a stivot....more subtle. Sometimes he'd nail the perfect turn on the right footer as he could carry the speed. A good hill to see it is Soelden, during his prime.

In speed, Bode had great ankles, great touch, great line, and knew when and where to push it. Also huge confidence in his ability to recover and not panic when things went wrong. The guy has ALWAYS been in the fall line since he was a kid. But tremendous feel for the surface.

And in SG.....smart. Great sense of the right line, etc.

I remember so well being told to watch him, knees down, over 20 years ago. So much has changed and evolved over that time. But Bode's uncanny ability to use that physiology and touch to pressure and use every mm of the ski hasn't.

It's too bad that the last four years have been so hard on his body. It takes it's toll. We're going to see Hirscher and Ligety both retire, IMO, after the 2018 season.

Bode might be the most inventive and creative guy that the sport has seen. And, yeah, hell of an athlete, and a smart one.

I don't see him "back seat" in the video. Watch the feet and the knees.

Just my $.02

Love Bode. Hope he's done, retired.

 

[Jack skis]

Mendieta I know you don't mean style as in school style skiing, but not since Sir Arnold Lunn got "current" ski racing started 90 or so years ago, style points have not been awarded in Alpine Skiing events. Lunn had judges give style points in slalom events, but it didn't last long, the clock won out. Different skiers have many different styles. I remember watching the Herminator in a GS at Aspen hitting every turning gate with his helmet in one run. A peculiar style, but very effective that day. Results are what counts whatever the stye on that day.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Didn't see any backseating in that video

Actually in the beginning of the run the commentators even mentioned it about 17seconds in, but more as a opps he got back type of thing.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Any top athlete knows correct technique. The best also know when to do what's required to win and that is not always the best technique, just a Hail Mary technique.

Think of it as what's right and what's required.

The mistake mortals make is thinking they can do what's required without being able to do what's right.

 

[Muleski]

Maybe in this one?

I am not sure if 'backseat' is the right term, but a lot of the time he seems to be balanced towards the back, while most racers tend to be more centered. Cheers!

Just my $.02. Than GS run at Soelden is one of the worst of his career, late in his career. Horrible run on a punishing hill. Being backseat is not the problem. Nothing's working for him on that run.
Bode in his prime won on that hill, finished second. I think the run on the video was his worst ever there. Sure looked that way.

 

[Mendieta]

It would look like he was suddenly "back seat." Not my understanding. Part of the problem was that Bode would very often generate too much speed.

It may be that. Even in the first video I quoted, in the first turn at 20s in the race, he seems to be leaning back, more than others do, but he's going so fast! I think I'm not the only one to perceive it like this. Here is one (I just googled a bit):

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...s-baddest-boy-comes-good-at-last-1907329.html

When he was 14, Miller joined a ski academy, where coaches winced at a skiing style that wasn't so much unusual as plain wrong. Miller leaned back on his skis – a mortal sin – to generate speed, but at the expense of control. Arms flailing, skis all over the hill, he was as well-known for his crashes as his wins – and wowed onlookers with his physics-defying ability to stay on his feet. A former teammate called Miller the "Houdini" of recoveries.

But his balls-out, back-seat style, which he refused to change, combined with a superhuman athleticism, gave Miller a hit rate that was high enough, in 1996, to win him a spot on the US ski team. Still, the cowboy in a skinsuit refused to conform to the strictures of professional racing: more likely to be found in the bar than the gym, he horrified coaches by refusing to ski anywhere but at the very edge of control.

Or this one by the times
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/magazine/when-fame-and-talent-collide.html?_r=0

Miller's skiing style was not just unorthodox; from a traditional standpoint, it was flat out wrong. Instead of keeping his weight over the center of his feet, he sat far back on his skis -- a posture commonly derided as backseat driving. The position allowed Miller to let his skis run fast, frequently at the expense of maintaining his balance. His bursts of speed would be followed by falls. Unlike other young skiers, though, Miller seemed unfazed by wipeouts. "There were times when he'd go for a month and not finish a run," Cochrane says. "Then one day he'd finally get through it, and come up to me and say, 'I've figured it out."'

Anyways, the info in this thread has been, as usual, priceless. I obviously didn't mean to take merit away from one of the best race skiers ever, but rather understand his skiing better. Loved your post, @Muleski !

 

[Mendieta]

@Mendieta you may want to read this http://www.epicski.com/t/99527/reconciling-foot-squirt-with-foragonal-movements

That's a keeper, I just took a quick look. Great reading for the train commute tomorrow morning

 

[Muleski]

It may be that. Even in the first video I quoted, in the first turn at 20s in the race, he seems to be leaning back, more than others do, but he's going so fast! I think I'm not the only one to perceive it like this. Here is one (I just googled a bit):

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...s-baddest-boy-comes-good-at-last-1907329.html



Or this one by the times
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/magazine/when-fame-and-talent-collide.html?_r=0



Anyways, the info in this thread has been, as usual, priceless. I obviously didn't mean to take merit away from one of the best race skiers ever, but rather understand his skiing better. Loved your post, @Muleski !

Thanks. The two articles that you quoted. Flat out wrong. Sensationalized. The legend of Bode. In the mainstream press. I know the three guys who coached him the most during those CVA years. Nobody "winced" that I know of! They were frustrated at times by his being stubborn, independent, and in retrospect, smart. The kid was unique and there a plenty of stories.

Bode liked to learn in his own, and figure things out, rather than doing what he was told. Now this is all, say age 16+. As I recall, when he was like 13, he probably was doing a lot of fun, wild, straight line backseating.
I have had many a chuckle with the guy who coached him the most over some of these articles. He's the guy who told me to watch the knees and ankles. You can't drive a ski the way this kid did without being on the front of the boot, if that makes sense.........

It's not like he was handed the K2 fours, a bolt of lightning struck, and he arrived. He was one of the top juniors in the East, at a time when the field was loaded, as most of the top juniors from around the country were at Eastern Academies.

As you can probably tell, my opinion of a lot of the press coverage, particularly a decade plus ago, was that it was not so accurate!

But good stuff to sell copy. And people wonder why Bode go a bit tired of some of this stuff.

 

[Prickly Jones]

Really interesting, informed analysis in this thread, I have nothing to add in that regard. I would observe the following, though. Bode Miller has long reminded me of another preternatural sports talent I watched a lot growing up, John McEnroe. Both appeared tremendously unorthodox, though experts would later break down their movements to show this wasn't necessarily the case. Both were supremely talented and gifted with other-worldly feel for their sport. I saw legions of tennis players trying to copy McEnroe, and I believe a generation of players suffered for trying. It's probably the same for ski racers. These guys were unique, weird, quirky -- impossible to copy.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I used to fence Epee at a very high level. On the way up I ran across a book of an American self taught that became one of the worlds best, despite all comments that he did everything all wrong. What he did was very perfectly wrong. After his first championship, he realized that he must correct his technique to be even better and set out to do so and won a few more as a result.

The important thing in his book was that you need skill and technique as it gives you the tools to do what is required to win and be the best. Bode just happens to have mastered both.

 

[Philpug]

We just lost one the the legends of golf, Arnold Palmer, as much of a gentleman that Arnie was, you wouldn't want to copy his golf swing, it was very unorthodox but worked for him. The same could be said for some of the stuff that worked for Bode, it worked for him. @Muleski talks about Bode's ankle flexion, I think that is why he is playing with a 30 year old boot design in the Flexon...errr Full Tilt. The Full Tilt has more ramp and forward lean than most any WC level boot that Bode might have access to. No one knows Bode's body like Bode and again @Muleski will probably agree with that based on the way he talked about the way Bode trained as a youth and young race when coming up the ranks. It appears that Bode has always looked at unconvential, as in non race gear, not as a limitation but a way to gain an advantage. He looks at t for what it does, not what it can't do. Flexons were used by many racers in the 80's, as I mentioned in the other thread, Bill Johnson won the downhill in Sarajevo in them, Andre Arnold used them as Pro racer and I know there were some other Europeans that used the Flexon in speed events. It was the suppleness of the external ribbed tongue that allowed the Flexon so work so well at speeds. For Bode to consider it now, really is not that surprising, more suprising is why it went away from being a consideration in the first place.

 

[Prickly Jones]

. Flexons were used by many racers in the 80's

Vreni Schneider won the women's World Cup overall 3 times with those boots.