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Blue Streak

I like snow.
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The greatest North American ski race will be upon us in a little over a month, the Audi Birds of Prey in Beaver Creek from Nov. 30 - Dec. 2, 2018.
It is a real thrill to see the worlds best skiers on a great course, and the associated events are just a blast.
Anyone interested in a little Pugski World Cup gathering?
 
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TS
Blue Streak

Blue Streak

I like snow.
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Thread Starter
TS
Blue Streak

Blue Streak

I like snow.
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The weather last year, as you might remember, was awful.
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Still, the snowmaking crew had the course in pretty good shape.
But skiing in and out of the arena was not an option.
If we have a normal year, we could make a ski day out of it too.
 

LKLA

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Is this the only mens race in the US - if so, why is that?

With over 400 ski areas and over 50 million skier visits each year, one would think that the US would host more skiing competitions.
 

coskigirl

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I was fortunate enough to watch Mikaela win there a few years ago. No Epic pass combined with a final exam that weekend means I can’t be there this year.
 
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Blue Streak

Blue Streak

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It’s almost here.
Anyone interested in catching up for some turns at BC on Saturday and watching the Downhill?
 

Rudi Riet

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Is this the only mens race in the US - if so, why is that?

With over 400 ski areas and over 50 million skier visits each year, one would think that the US would host more skiing competitions.

Welcome to the politics of the International Ski Federation (FIS)!

The FIS is dominated by the Alpine nations of Europe: Austria, France, Switzerland, Germany. And a majority of the competitors on the World Cup circuit hail from European countries, so the FIS tends to tilt the schedule toward European venues. The heritage is there: races at St. Moritz, Val d'Isere, Kitzbühel, Wengen, Val Gardena, Schladming, Åre, Alta Badia, and I could go on and on.

So the FIS tries to minimize huge travel blocks for the athletes, coaches, technicians, PR people, et al. The way they do this is to bunch events around a few venues - you don't see many one-off, single-day tech races showing up as new events outside of central Europe. And they like North America in the early season as we tend to have more reliable weather and far more reliable snowmaking.

So it evolved that Lake Louise's speed venue, Beaver Creek's speed venue, Aspen Mountain's speed/tech venue, and Park City's tech venue hosted early season events starting in the early 1990s. Over time, this got whittled down. Park City stopped hosting its "America's Opening" events after the hubbub of the 2002 Winter Olympics passed. When Aspen was awarded the World Cup finals for the 2016-17 season, that (combined with test events at the Pyeongchang Olympic venues) opened up additional North American opportunities both early in the season and prior to the Aspen event. That's when Killington entered the mix with their SL/GS weekend, and Squaw Valley hosted women's tech events immediately prior to Aspen.

Where Killington won favor with FIS was that, while they hosted a top-notch event on a venue that was customized to a modern FIS wish list (e.g. dedicated snowmaking system, modern high-speed lift service), Aspen fumbled by refusing to upgrade some ancient lift infrastructure. Aspen lost their traditional race, while Killington pounced and signed a 2-year extension with FIS for hosting races. While that contract has now expired, it's widely expected that Killington will host again next year, and that this stop on the tour will become more-or-less "permanent" going forward.

Now, back to why there aren't more World Cup events in North America: as well as the expense (and the reluctance of alpine powerhouse teams to travel so far from home), it comes down to scheduling.

Speed events require huge amounts of time, money, and manpower to prepare and execute. Hill prep starts weeks before the first training run. This includes snowmaking, A and B net setup, timing cabling, media cabling and platforms, network infrastructure, snow injection, grandstand installation, and many other things. Tech events can operate on a shorter schedule, but it's also a big commitment for a venue. Volunteers don't grow on trees, and some resorts have a hard time attracting able individuals to help stage ski races.

The question of additional North American events (specifically in New England) came up at one of the Killington World Cup pre-event press conferences. Tiger Shaw (head of U.S. Ski and Snowboard) said it's all down to the FIS and their schedules, but it's also dependent on willing venues. FIS likes venues that are easily accessed by traveling teams and spectators. New England is loaded with skiers (and ski racers, young and old), and is easily accessible from major airports in Boston and Montreal.

So that leaves the resorts to decide. While the new racing and training venue at Cannon's Mittersill area is truly world class (Baron's Run is homologated for World Cup GS events), it still needs infrastructure improvements (namely parking and lodges) to host a World Cup event to modern FIS standards. Waterville Valley hosted World Cups in the early 1990s, but their race hills no longer meet World Cup homologation standards). Whiteface Mountain can hold World Cup SL, GS, or SG events (their Cloudspin DH track isn't quite up to modern standards). Sugarloaf could host speed and tech events. In Quebec, Mont Tremblant and Mont-Sainte-Anne have hosted World Cup events in the past, and could hold them again. Le Massif was part of Quebec City's abortive Winter Olympic bids, and they could have their speed venue re-certified for super-G.

If one or more of these areas agree to host a World Cup, they can - and should - put in a bid.

But hosting at any of these sites - especially in the northeast - is dependent on available time (which would likely be mid-November). They can't overlap with the now-traditional Levi SL races, and the weather has to cooperate to make snow. So a tech event is the most likely thing to happen. I could see Cannon/Mittersill or one of the Quebec mountains host a tech weekend. And it has to be a weekend in order to draw crowds: Killington's 15,000-18,000 per day is helped by the fact that their races occur on a holiday weekend.

Again, all this in conjecture right now. The FIS has to show willingness to hold more events in North America. And until the December venues in Europe become more consistently unreliable in terms of snow conditions, they aren't likely to give an inch.

Just my $0.02 - YMMV.
 

Primoz

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Welcome to the politics of the International Ski Federation (FIS)!
Now, back to why there aren't more World Cup events in North America: as well as the expense (and the reluctance of alpine powerhouse teams to travel so far from home), it comes down to scheduling.
It's not exactly like that, and it's not so much of politics then money. Thing is, World cup (in skiing or anything else) goes there where money is. I don't think FIS has single US sponsor, and majority of FIS sponsors are concentrated on European market. So once paying millions of sponsorship money, you want to be present at your target market. And US, Asia, Africa etc. are not target markets for majority of FIS sponsors. What skiers, coaches and servicemen want is something what noone really cares about. If there would be enough money for FIS, they wouldn't have problems having race in Europe one weekend, in Japan, next weekend, in South Africa (even if no snow) on Wednesday, and on Friday, they would be racing in US, with race on Sunday scheduled for Europe again. How racers and teams would cope with that is not their problem. But "luckily" there's not enough "out of Europe" sponsors, so I think we won't see crazy things like this for a while ;)

while Killington pounced and signed a 2-year extension with FIS for hosting races. While that contract has now expired, it's widely expected that Killington will host again next year, and that this stop on the tour will become more-or-less "permanent" going forward.
From what I know, Killington had 3+1 year contract, so next year is for sure (30.11.-1.12.2019), but for 2020 it's just reserved date (28.-29.11.2020) for US World cup, but with no organizer in draft, but from what I heard it's almost sure it will be Killington.
 

Tom Holtmann

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Interesting take. Not exactly the best way to grow your sport - the NBA and NFL certainly seem to want to try and expand their markets by expanding their audience worldwide. Skiing is a niche sport so maybe it isn't viable however the Killington experience seems to indicate there is interest. Also, while many of the "World Cup" products are European the US certainly buys a lot of those products.
 

Tom Holtmann

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Exactly! And aren’t the Europeans supposed to be Globalists?????? :)
Not only that but I quickly looked up two of the main sponsers of FIS Audi and Longines. Audi Sales: Europe (860 thousand), China (597 thousand), USA (226 thousand). Longines is a luxury watch company the following is worldwide luxury watch purchases 1) Hong Kong (2,524.7 thousand), (2) US (2050 thousand), (3) China (1536.7 thousand) the first continental European is Italy in 6th place. So it seems US and China would be good markets to develop especially in light of the potential for diminished snow in the future.
 

Primoz

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Audi is main sponsor, that's true, but check boards next to the track, there's whole bunch of other sponsors on those sports, and as I wrote, most of them are more or less pretty much local companies. And for most of races, big percentage of trackside boards are sold by FIS or Infront and not by race organizers. That depends on race, but for majority of races, it goes like that.
 

dbostedo

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^^^
Well for the Killington race, Lagunitas (California beer) was pretty prominent (stuck in my mind anyway). There's probably a chicken-and-egg effect too, where more North American events would attract more North American sponsors, OR more North American sponsors could push for more North American events... but which comes first? Or do they need to progress together?
 

Tom Holtmann

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Audi is main sponsor, that's true, but check boards next to the track, there's whole bunch of other sponsors on those sports, and as I wrote, most of them are more or less pretty much local companies. And for most of races, big percentage of trackside boards are sold by FIS or Infront and not by race organizers. That depends on race, but for majority of races, it goes like that.
Yep - sounds pretty minor league. Maybe the sport is doomed to stay that way but seems like more progressive leadership would want to grow the sport to other rich and growing markets.
 

Primoz

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@Tom Holtmann lets be realistic... skiing is minor sport. When you compare it to football (real one not yours :P ) every kid anywhere on world, regardless if rich or poor is playing it. Every country on world has at least 2 or 3 leagues with even smallest countries having few 1000 registered players. Based on Wikipedia, 24.5mio was playing football in USA in 2015, probably more then there's skiers on World, and you have 4millions registered players. That means, are members of official clubs and US Soccer (how many members USST has?). On qualifications for World cup, there's what, 150 countries trying to get into those 30 or so, that have right to compete on World cup. Basketball is not that big, but it's still somewhere there, at least sort of. And I doubt there's more then few countries on World that one way or the other don't show on TV at least part of best basketball league on World. Skiing on the other side is sport of only few people. There's maybe 10 countries, probably even less where skiing is really developed and where it's big. Then there's another maybe another 10 countries at best case,where maybe 50% of people even know what skiing is, and where maybe 20% of them were ever skiing. So looking through numbers like this, skiing is less then just minor sport.
 

James

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... the Killington experience seems to indicate there is interest. Also, while many of the "World Cup" products are European the US certainly buys a lot of those products.
But Aspen as I understand got maybe 1,000 people tops? Save for the finals. But tv is big and skiing on tv in the us not so much. Maybe fantasy betting on ski racing could bring it more people.
 

Rudi Riet

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But Aspen as I understand got maybe 1,000 people tops? Save for the finals. But tv is big and skiing on tv in the us not so much. Maybe fantasy betting on ski racing could bring it more people.

Aspen, for as much skiing history it has in North America, is an inaccessible venue for most. Closest airports (Vail-Eagle and Grand Junction - not going to count Aspen's own mostly-private airport) aren't that close and seldom have affordable flights. Lodging is expensive. Lift tickets are expensive if you want to ski (and you didn't get an IKON pass). Parking proximate to the Aspen Mountain base area is scarce and pricey. And if you're in Aspen, you're likely there to ski, not to watch a ski race.

Killington may not have the closest airports, but there are two major (Boston and Montreal) and multiple minor (Albany, Burlington, Manchester) airports within a few hours' drive that have affordable flights with high frequency. Lodging is mostly affordable, especially if you stay in Rutland (only 25 minutes from Killington). Lift tickets can be pricey for what's open, but they aren't that bad. And in a typical early season, there's not too much open elsewhere on the mountain to distract from the races. Parking close to the race venue is plentiful and the venue is very spectator friendly. And there's network and electrical infrastructure to support an international broadcast feed with ease.

Beaver Creek keeps getting the green light as it's a rare speed venue in North America (at least a rare one that's World Cup homologated and considered challenging). The network and electrical infra on-site is first rate, enabling easy TV and internet broadcasting directly from the venue. BC suffers from the same accessibility and expense woes as Aspen, and getting to the finish area isn't simple, especially if the rest of the mountain isn't yet open. But it's a well-run race that typically has ideal snowmaking weather leading into its race week. The FIS would be foolish to pass up Beaver Creek.

The issue with TV coverage of races is that there's a lot involved, especially with speed events needing to have a large amount of cable and other infra setup. Also, speed races, for all the excitement you may see in the great runs, take a long time to broadcast. If anything, slaloms or the increasingly common parallel events are the most likely conduit to more TV coverage, especially in the U.S. While a casual viewer may not be able to tell why an individual ski run is fastest, or where an athlete lost time, a parallel event is instant gratification: first across the line wins. It's something the "lizard brain" can comprehend, whether or not the viewer is a member of the ski racing cognoscenti.

I'm not convinced that betting on ski races will make the sport more attractive. It may work in some areas, but it hasn't made horse racing more commonplace, and I'm not sure it's done anything for other pro sports in the U.S.
 

Tom Holtmann

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I guess the question is whether there are innovative ways to increase ski racing popularity outside of Europe. It may be that the current model doesn't work outside Europe however maybe there are other ways. It seems a shame that ski racing didn't receive any significant bump in popularity in the US during an era where it had some truly interesting and mega talented skiers like Bode Miller and Lindsey Vonn who had world wide appeal. Sports just don't get those "special" athletes that transcend their sport that often and when you do have one you need to aggressively take advantage. Who would have ever thought that a sport like MMA would have taken off like it has in the last decade. Yet thru savvy innovative promotion and marketing of athletes like Conor McGregor and Rhonda Rousey (among others) it has transformed into a force to be reckoned with.
 

James

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Is MMA really popular because of its stars? I doubt it but don't follow it. I suspect they're just a cherry on top.

Nascar at onetime was taking everything over with marketing but has fallen back majorly.
 

Tom Holtmann

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@Tom Holtmann lets be realistic... skiing is minor sport. When you compare it to football (real one not yours :P ) every kid anywhere on world, regardless if rich or poor is playing it. Every country on world has at least 2 or 3 leagues with even smallest countries having few 1000 registered players. Based on Wikipedia, 24.5mio was playing football in USA in 2015, probably more then there's skiers on World, and you have 4millions registered players. That means, are members of official clubs and US Soccer (how many members USST has?). On qualifications for World cup, there's what, 150 countries trying to get into those 30 or so, that have right to compete on World cup. Basketball is not that big, but it's still somewhere there, at least sort of. And I doubt there's more then few countries on World that one way or the other don't show on TV at least part of best basketball league on World. Skiing on the other side is sport of only few people. There's maybe 10 countries, probably even less where skiing is really developed and where it's big. Then there's another maybe another 10 countries at best case,where maybe 50% of people even know what skiing is, and where maybe 20% of them were ever skiing. So looking through numbers like this, skiing is less then just minor sport.

It is a minor sport but does that mean it is destined to be that way forever. Until the mid 70s tennis was a minor sport played largely by rich people and dominated by the US and Australia without any real money. Today it is one of the biggest and richest world wide sports. Snowboarding was nothing but became extremely popular in the US. MMA had almost no interest a decade ago and was truly fringe and now is one of the most popular sports world wide. Not many people played basketball outside of the US twenty years ago and now it is one of the top three biggest sports world wide. Skiing obviously has the snow restriction which is unique but it has other interesting attributes - perhaps most importantly it has true female stars which most other sports don't. Skiing is a relatively small sport which will either grow, stay the same or shrink relative today depending on what he powers that be do. However, the current course seems to point to shrinkage.
 

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