Bindings 101: What Are Your Questions?

[markojp]

... and the possibility that something happens during the mounting/gear storage process and the shop buys you a new ski. Try that at home!

 

[Uncle-A]

Hmmm. OK..I'll bite. To mount a pair of bindings correctly.

Bringing the gear in:
Have the customer fill out the work ticket correctly
Explain what a Type I, II, and III skier is and no, they cannot circle two of them
Go back to the customer to have them sign the paperwork to authorize the work
Explain that they need to read sign "here" and not "there"
Get all the gear that is involved
Clearly mark all of the gear so it does not get mixed up
Explain that yes you do need the boot and no just cannot use any size 9 boot.
Explain that they cannot jsut wait for the gear, there are 15 pairs of skis ahead of them to get done, poor planning on their part since they bought the gear two months ago and they are on their way to the mountain now, does not make them special and by saying "I buy all of my gear here" doesn't work either because the skis, boots and bindings clearly have anothers shops price tag on them. "Well, all but these skis, boots and bindings"

Log and catalog all of the gear in so the tech can find them.
Tech pulls ticket to do mount.
Sees that the weight/age/height/whatever pertinent information is missing.
Tries to call customer, no answer. Hopes they called the right number because is looks like a monkey wrote it
Leaves message
Looks for clark who did paperwork
Clerk is with another customer
Waits
Waits
Waits
Takes a smoke break
Comes back
Clerk left for day
Talks to other techs saying what a grom the clerk is and why can't this shop hire someone with a brain
Has to put gear back calm self to go to next mount

Customer comes in to pick up gear
Three employees are now looking for the gear in "done" area, cannot find it
Gear is not done
They find the gear in the "waiting for info" area.
Customer is pissed that gear is not done and is making a scene
Tech said, " I Called and left a message on Thursday...duuude"
Customer agures they didn't
Did
Didn't
Did
Didn't
Little Johnny said he erased the message.
No aplogy from customer
Tells little Johnny it's not his fault and he is a special snowflake

Now that tech as all of the information he can NOW mount the ski
First he has to finish the mount that is already on his bench
Go find the gear to be mounted
Gear has been moved
Three different employees now have to help find gear
All gear is found

(simple part that people think is juuuust the mount)
Take plastic off of new skis
Put plastic on trash
Realize trash is full
Find a shop rat to empty trash
Explain to shop rat that emptying the trash IS his %$^ing job
Put Shop rat IN trash can head first
remove sh0p rat from trash can
Start mount
Measure with tape measure
Measure again
Mark Boot Center
Get the drill
Put the correct bit in drill
Find the proper jig
Align jig
Match center mark with ski/boot/jig
Match binding holes with binding to jig confirning that the binding is a Look SPX 12 and not a SPX Racing (which has a different hole patten)
Make sure all of the parts are there
Look for missing screws
See that a 80mm brake cannot just be bent for a 110mm ski
Find a brake to match (of course at no charge to customer)
Drill the ski
Tap the ski
Clean out the holes
Glue
Make sure the screw shooter is set at proper torque
Start screwing bindings onto ski
Hand tighten screws
Set the indicators according to that brand's chart
Make sure forward pressure is correct
In
out
in
out
Second ski
In
out
in out
Torque ski
Mount done
Clean up ski
Remove sale stickers (from other shop)
Wipe down ski
Complete paper work with...
Intial settings
pass/fail for wach line
Actual settings
Give gear and paperwork to the cleark to have the customer pay and give to customer.

Cleck shows customer bindings all the paper work
(Tries to ) explains why one toe is shows a 7.5 when all others show 6.5
Has to call tech in to explain the same thing to customer
Customer asks if the skis are hand waxed
Expains to customer that they didn't pay for that
Customer asks "how long does it take to just wax a ski?
Customer signs paperwork
Customer pays

Work ticket gets put into box by register
At end of day/week/month when box is over flowing work tickers are brough to office
In office work tickets are organized
Work tickets are then files to be kept for 7 years
Boxes and boxes of tickets are then moved to storage unit/attic/basement/where ever they out of site/out of mind.

Chances are a shop charges $40-50 a mount. A good tech is going to make $18-20-some an hour and the other employees referenced in this example $12-18 an hour. A business should make roughly 100% on a employee's work considering all of the taxes, benefits ect that that employee gets. Yes, some of the steps above are not in every mount and are tongue in cheek but they do happen...more often than anyone would like to think. So, to do a mount properly and assuming that everything is done correctly from complete start to finish, it will take at least 1.5-2 hours..incuding all of the paperwork that needs to get filled out. I didn't even get into the time that it takes ordering supplies (bits/drills/work tickets). When time is money...all of this has to come from somewhere. I will say overall, a shop will bearly break even on a mount when everything is taken into consideration of what goes into a mount.

Feel free to have a chuckle, eye roll or whatever but trust me, that is more accurate than not.

Phil, that was a good laugh, but based on the 1.5 - 2 hour estimate wouldn't that be 6 pair of skis in an eight hour day. That seems low and around the holidays when parents want to put mounted skis under the tree and they come in to purchase on 23rd of Dec. and yes a lot of late nights get worked around the holidays. BTW never received a bribe for putting someone to the front of the line. It was usually the opposite the customer would say they would take their business to another shop if they could not have the skis done when they wanted. The NE is a tuff market. One of the shops I worked had a double bench that you could drill both skis with a matching double drilling jig, set the BSL and mid-point once and you could drill all holes, it did save time. You could knock out a pair of skis in under an hour.

 

[Philpug]

Phil, that was a good laugh, but based on the 1.5 - 2 hour estimate wouldn't that be 6 pair of skis in an eight hour day. That seems low and around the holidays when parents want to put mounted skis under the tree and they come in to purchase on 23rd of Dec. and yes a lot of late nights get worked around the holidays. ....

My point is, the whole process takes 1.5-2 hours from ordering to stocking to selling to paperwork to filing. Granted some of that time is for numerous skis but many times there are numerous people involved in the process.

One of the shops I worked had a double bench that you could drill both skis with a matching double drilling jig, set the BSL and mid-point once and you could drill all holes, it did save time. You could knock out a pair of skis in under an hour.

Again, that is just the mount...not all of the oher details. You asked about the correct way to do a mount.

 

[Doug Briggs]

When things go smoothly, which is about 95% of the time with conservative times:

• 10 minutes to receive skis, fill in form and tote skis to tech area (guessing, I don't do this part)
• 15 minutes to find gear and mount
• 10 minutes to test
• 2 minute to tote skis to front of shop
• 5 minutes to locate and check out customer (ditto guessing)

@Philpug 's scenario was a little to close to reality the other 95% of the time to be funny.

Cookies are fine, beer is better, whiskey is nice. Cash always works. Leaving great condition skis (MX98 184cm) that you no longer want, priceless.

 

[François Pugh]

Wow! It looks like I saved a lot of time and effort by just doing it myself.

FWIW I paid $40 about half a dozen years ago to get some FF17+ mounted on my Volants because I didn't have the correct drill bit and I wanted to support a good local shop (Shop didn't sell Volants and didn't sell Tyrolia bindings).

For mounting system bindings on plastic plates that do not require a jig or drilling what's the price?

 

[Philpug]

For mounting system bindings on plastic plates that do not require a jig or drilling what's the price?

The cost really isn''t in the actual mounting it is all the other time consuming steps that go with the process. Should a system mount be less? Maybe. With logic, a remount should be more because there is bindings to remove, holes to plug and remeasuring because you have to account for existing hole conflict.

 

[LKLA]

Since this seems to be the binding thread -

Any thoughts on a binding for 120 or 130cm Rossignol Hero Junior Multi Event skis?

Our son skis mainly expert trails and glades. He weighs around 55 lbs and is about four and half ft tall. Wears a 21 boot size and is likely at a 3 DIN setting.

The two bindings the shop suggested are the Look Team 4 or the Look NX 7 Jr.

I would like something that is really lite given he is a fairly small kid but also a high quality binding. Price is not an issue.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Philpug]

Since this seems to be the binding thread -

Any thoughts on a binding for 120 or 130cm Rossignol Hero Junior Multi Event skis?

Our son skis mainly expert trails and glades. He weighs around 55 lbs and is about four and half ft tall. Wears a 21 boot size and is likely at a 3 DIN setting.

The two bindings the shop suggested are the Look Team 4 or the Look NX 7 Jr.

I would like something that is really lite given he is a fairly small kid but also a high quality binding. Price is not an issue.

Thanks for your help!

I am not sure how you are figuring his setting, but no 55lb'er has a setting of 3. At his age, weigtht and BSL, adjustments are made in 1/4 turns and not full settings. It is also suggested by every manufacturer that no child of that weight is a "Type III" skier, no matter the terrain they ski.

If price is not an issue and you want light, but the right binding for him this year, then the right binding for him when he gets heavier. Both Rossi bindings are very good.

 

[Doug Briggs]

There are five essential tools for free-mounting bindings.

1) Your brain is imperative since you need to calculate and measure (at least) twice to insure a successful mount.

2) Anther tool is a bit with a stop. Shop bits specifically for mounting restrict the penetration depth and most also countersink just a touch into the topsheet. The countersink helps reduce 'volcanoing' where the top sheet raises above the surface of the ski while screwing the binding on. The self limiting depth feature should be obvious. Failing to tap a ski with metal or an integral mounting plate will eventually result in delamination as the top sheet will pull away from the ski while the screw tries to create threads in a material it wasn't designed to cut into.

Skis without a metal topsheet or an integral mounting plate should be drilled with a 3.5 mm bit. Skis with a metal topsheet or a integral mounting plate should be drilled with a 4.1 mm bit and tapped.

3) The third essential tool is a tap. A tap will cut the ski material leaving nice clean threads into which to screw in the screws. A tap is absolutely essential for metal topsheets as well as skis with metal or plastic mounting plates built into the binding area.

4) A posidrive screwdriver. While it might look like a phillips screwdriver, it has a few characteristics that make it imperative for posidrive screws.

5) Waterproof glue. I use the SVST glue specifically for this process. You can substitute epoxy (I don't recommend it; you can ruin a screw head trying to remove an epoxied screw) or exterior grade wood glue.

As with any procedure, it is good to practice on expendable gear. It is especially import to practice a mount to insure that what you think is the proper distance between toe and heel will, in reality, provide sufficient forward pressure.

 

[PTskier]

Should a system mount be less? Maybe.

Gott'a pick on this one. One of these days I'll slide my Head bindings on their rail with my eyes shut just to show that I can. The ski factory positioned, drilled, and screwed down the rail. The rest of the stuff is certainly valid--paperwork, binding release test, moron customer (or moron ski mechanic like the ones at REI that can't even follow their own paperwork).

Doug said, "As with any procedure, it is good to practice on expendable gear. It is especially import to practice a mount to insure that what you think is the proper distance between toe and heel will, in reality, provide sufficient forward pressure." Agree fully. I use a 2x4. One Atomic binding I try-mounted took so many tries that the 2x4 looked like Swiss cheese with all the holes. When I finally got it set right I made a cardboard template to transfer the screw hole positions to the skis.

 

[Uncle-A]

There are five essential tools for free-mounting bindings.

1) Your brain is imperative since you need to calculate and measure (at least) twice to insure a successful mount.

2) The other tool is a bit with a stop. Shop bits specifically for mounting restrict the penetration depth and most also countersink just a touch into the topsheet. The countersink helps reduce 'volcanoing' where the top sheet raises above the surface of the ski while screwing the binding on. The self limiting depth feature should be obvious.

3) The third essential tool is a tap. A tap will cut the ski material leaving nice clean threads into which to screw in the screws. A tap is absolutely essential for metal topsheets as well as skis with metal or plastic mounting plates built into the binding area.

4) A posidrive screwdriver. While it might look like a phillips screwdriver, it has a few characteristics that make it imperative for posidrive screws.

5) Waterproof glue. I use the SVST glue specifically for this process. You can substitute epoxy (I don't recommend it; you can ruin a screw head trying to remove an epoxied screw) or exterior grade wood glue.

As with any procedure, it is good to practice on expendable gear. It is especially import to practice a mount to insure that what you think is the proper distance between toe and heel will, in reality, provide sufficient forward pressure.

Good job Doug as always.

 

[Philpug]

There are five essential tools for free-mounting bindings.

1) Your brain is imperative since you need to calculate and measure (at least) twice to insure a successful mount.

2) The other tool is a bit with a stop. Shop bits specifically for mounting restrict the penetration depth and most also countersink just a touch into the topsheet. The countersink helps reduce 'volcanoing' where the top sheet raises above the surface of the ski while screwing the binding on. The self limiting depth feature should be obvious.

3) The third essential tool is a tap. A tap will cut the ski material leaving nice clean threads into which to screw in the screws. A tap is absolutely essential for metal topsheets as well as skis with metal or plastic mounting plates built into the binding area.

4) A posidrive screwdriver. While it might look like a phillips screwdriver, it has a few characteristics that make it imperative for posidrive screws.

5) Waterproof glue. I use the SVST glue specifically for this process. You can substitute epoxy (I don't recommend it; you can ruin a screw head trying to remove an epoxied screw) or exterior grade wood glue.

As with any procedure, it is good to practice on expendable gear. It is especially import to practice a mount to insure that what you think is the proper distance between toe and heel will, in reality, provide sufficient forward pressure.

I wish SVST would sell directly to the consumer.

 

[LKLA]

I am not sure how you are figuring his setting, but no 55lb'er has a setting of 3. At his age, weigtht and BSL, adjustments are made in 1/4 turns and not full settings. It is also suggested by every manufacturer that no child of that weight is a "Type III" skier, no matter the terrain they ski.

If price is not an issue and you want light, but the right binding for him this year, then the right binding for him when he gets heavier. Both Rossi bindings are very good.

Thanks!

So you are saying that 3 DIN is likely too high?

I mentioned a 3 DIN as he is on a 2 plus DIN at the moment on Look Kid-X 4 B76 bindings. But, I have NO clue so I will let that be decided by those who do.

And you are right, the Look Kid-X 4 B76 bindings move in 0.25 increments, from 0.75 to 4.5.

I ordered him a pair of 2019 Volkl Racetiger SL in 124cm, and the Volkl rep recommended to go with Marker bindings (I guess Volkl and Marker are owned by the same folks?). So, I was thinking of getting the Marker Race Junior 8 biding, which has a 2.0 - 8.0 DIN range.

 

[Philpug]

Thanks!

So you are saying that 3 DIN is likely too high?

I mentioned a 3 DIN as he is on a 2 plus DIN at the moment on Look Kid-X 4 B76 bindings. But, I have NO clue so I will let that be decided by those who do.

And you are right, the Look Kid-X 4 B76 bindings move in 0.25 increments, from 0.75 to 4.5.

I ordered him a pair of 2019 Volkl Racetiger SL in 124cm, and the Volkl rep recommended to go with Marker bindings (I guess Volkl and Marker are owned by the same folks?). So, I was thinking of getting the Marker Race Junior 8 biding, which has a 2.0 - 8.0 DIN range.

Volkl and Marker are sister companies so yes the rep wants your to stay in the family. The new junior binding is a good one too.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I wish SVST would sell directly to the consumer.

If you have a business license, you could probably get an account. I have no idea what their minimums are. I just have Chuck get the stuff I need which isn't much as I just use what's in the shop.

When I was bike racing back east in the last century, the shop owner of the team I raced on was kind of crotchety because one of the team members had set up an account with a bike wholesaler with a simple tax ID that just about anyone can get. Everytime the racer showed up with new gear that hadn't been purchased through the shop, the owner would grumble.

 

[Philpug]

If you have a business license, you could probably get an account. I have no idea what their minimums are. I just have Chuck get the stuff I need which isn't much as I just use what's in the shop.

When I was bike racing back east in the last century, the shop owner of the team I raced on was kind of crotchety because one of the team members had set up an account with a bike wholesaler with a simple tax ID that just about anyone can get. Everytime the racer showed up with new gear that hadn't been purchased through the shop, the owner would grumble.

I am not asking for me (we have an account), but there are a lot of members here who have the knowledge to do a good job (mounting, tuning and even some bootwork) and just need access to some of the best tools available. Access to product has changed a lot since the last century..even the last decade.

 

[SpikeDog]

There are five essential tools for free-mounting bindings.


3) The third essential tool is a tap. A tap will cut the ski material leaving nice clean threads into which to screw in the screws. A tap is absolutely essential for metal topsheets as well as skis with metal or plastic mounting plates built into the binding area.
.

Why would a tap be necessary? A metal topsheet or layer is just that, a layer. It's not metal all the way through. Putting a screw into mainly wood, the lack of a precut tap thread would help make a tighter bond, no?

 

[jmeb]

Why would a tap be necessary? A metal topsheet or layer is just that, a layer. It's not metal all the way through. Putting a screw into mainly wood, the lack of a precut tap thread would help make a tighter bond, no?

A tap isn't necessary for non-metal skis in my experience. When using screws that have been mounted multiple times into a new ski, I like to tap the hole because there is slight dulling of the self-tapping nature.

In a metal ski the issue is that the metal layer can separate and pull up--i.e. "volcano"--if not cut with a sharp tap. Personally -- I only tap far enough down to ensure I'm well past the metal, not necessarily to the bottom of the hole.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I am not asking for me (we have an account), but there are a lot of members here who have the knowledge to do a good job (mounting, tuning and even some bootwork) and just need access to some of the best tools available. Access to product has changed a lot since the last century..even the last decade.

Gotcha, I thought you'd have one but misunderstood your reply.

 

[jmeb]

I wish SVST would sell directly to the consumer.

Luckily resellers like @SlideWright exist.