Bindings 101: What Are Your Questions?

[princo]

The Atomic rental binding from the past few years is just a Salomon Quadrax binding currently known as the Z series.

Doug - Thanks for your response. Here are some pictures of the bindings. There is no model info on the bindings, just an Atomic label. I was trying to identify/date them and see if they were still in the indemnification list before I take them out for a check. Also, in one of the photos you can see that there's a tear in the plastic housing with the boot sizes. Is this cosmetic damage?

 

[Philpug]

Ok, I need some new bindings. The last bindings I bought for my performance ski were Look Pivot 12's. I like the delta (near zero), but the bindings are kinda flimsy -- I lost the forward pressure shim off of the heel pivot months ago. Will the 14's be better? Or do I have to go to an 18?

Finally, is there another binding I should consider? I hate the Tyrollia's largely, I suspect, because of the huge delta.

Mike

The plastic centering piece on the heel is the same with all the Pivots. The Attack series, 13 and above are near zero delta but are a higher on the ski than the Pivot though.

 

[Read Blinn]

I was going to say, Attacks are near zero.

 

[jwilli]

From what I have gathered in this thread, as a intermediate/adv. intermediate skier, 6', just under 200lb it's not going to make a huge difference what binding I put on my vantage 90s? A binding that goes up to 11 will be well within my DIN range (probably 7-8) but a little extra cash for a 12/13 model will buy a little more durable construction?

 

[ScotsSkier]

Ok, I need some new bindings. The last bindings I bought for my performance ski were Look Pivot 12's. I like the delta (near zero), but the bindings are kinda flimsy -- I lost the forward pressure shim off of the heel pivot months ago. Will the 14's be better? Or do I have to go to an 18?

Finally, is there another binding I should consider? I hate the Tyrollia's largely, I suspect, because of the huge delta.

Mike

Mike, it depends on which Tyrolias you look at. With the Freeflex , Z and RD bindings the 16, 17 and upwards variants all have a much lower heel than the 11,12, 14 versions which addresses the delta issues

 

[Read Blinn]

From what I have gathered in this thread, as a intermediate/adv. intermediate skier, 6', just under 200lb it's not going to make a huge difference what binding I put on my vantage 90s? A binding that goes up to 11 will be well within my DIN range (probably 7-8) but a little extra cash for a 12/13 model will buy a little more durable construction?

From what little I understand, you’re better off with a 12 DIN or higher (most bindings — with exceptions, mainly race bindings). I think I was told the springs are better, especially in the heels, which makes for a less binary release. (I have a set of Freeflex Pro 11s that have a good heel — a race binding.)

If I’m wrong, I will be corrected.

 

[Philpug]

From what I have gathered in this thread, as a intermediate/adv. intermediate skier, 6', just under 200lb it's not going to make a huge difference what binding I put on my vantage 90s? A binding that goes up to 11 will be well within my DIN range (probably 7-8) but a little extra cash for a 12/13 model will buy a little more durable construction?

Correct, step up to a 12/13. If you get a Salomon/Atomic Sth213 or Warden 13, you will add another year to your ski warrenty too.

From what little I understand, you’re better off with a 12 DIN or higher (most bindings — with exceptions, mainly race bindings). I think I was told the springs are better, especially in the heels, which makes for a less binary release. (I have a set of Freeflex Pro 11s that have a good heel — a race binding.)

If I’m wrong, I will be corrected.

No, you are correct and you get a virtual cookie.

 

[Mike Thomas]

I think I was told the springs are better, especially in the heels, which makes for a less binary release.

If I’m wrong, I will be corrected.

The concept is correct, but it isn't the spring, it is the design of the heel. Most lower DIN bindings are built to be light weight (and cheap) so the design is striped down and acts pretty much like a light switch. On or Off, no compensation for shock.

 

[Read Blinn]

The concept is correct, but it isn't the spring, it is the design of the heel. Most lower DIN bindings are built to be light weight (and cheap) so the design is striped down and acts pretty much like a light switch. On or Off, no compensation for shock.

Thanks Mike — it was you I was misquoting anyway.

 

[ScottB]

Mike, it depends on which Tyrolias you look at. With the Freeflex , Z and RD bindings the 16, 17 and upwards variants all have a much lower heel than the 11,12, 14 versions which addresses the delta issues

I have a few pairs of Tyrollia Attack 13's (1-4 years old) and they have a low delta. I measure it to be 3 mm, heel higher than toe. They do have an adjustable AFD, but the top of the toe is fixed, so your boot does not change height, you just use the adjustment to set the clearance between boot and AFD.

I am trying some of the demo Attach 13's and they seem to have even more delta, I haven't got an exact measurement yet, but it looks like a lot more to me. I will publish the number once I get a good measurement. I also learned the hard way the brake on the Demo Attack 13 does not fit the std. Attack 13.

I like a zero delta, so I am planning to shim the toes of my new Demo bindings.

 

[Philpug]

I have a few pairs of Tyrollia Attack 13's (1-4 years old) and they have a low delta. I measure it to be 3 mm, heel higher than toe. They do have an adjustable AFD, but the top of the toe is fixed, so your boot does not change height, you just use the adjustment to set the clearance between boot and AFD.

I am trying some of the demo Attach 13's and they seem to have even more delta, I haven't got an exact measurement yet, but it looks like a lot more to me. I will publish the number once I get a good measurement. I also learned the hard way the brake on the Demo Attack 13 does not fit the std. Attack 13.

I like a zero delta, so I am planning to shim the toes of my new Demo bindings.

Last years Attack demo is flat, 23mm.

 

[DanoT]

I have a few pairs of Tyrollia Attack 13's (1-4 years old) and they have a low delta. I measure it to be 3 mm, heel higher than toe. They do have an adjustable AFD, but the top of the toe is fixed, so your boot does not change height, you just use the adjustment to set the clearance between boot and AFD.

I am trying some of the demo Attach 13's and they seem to have even more delta, I haven't got an exact measurement yet, but it looks like a lot more to me. I will publish the number once I get a good measurement. I also learned the hard way the brake on the Demo Attack 13 does not fit the std. Attack 13.

I like a zero delta, so I am planning to shim the toes of my new Demo bindings.

With the demo Attack 13, as you say the top of the binding toe piece is fixed, so your boot DOES change height at the toe in order to obtain the correct clearances between boot toe and binding toe piece. This is accomplished by moving the anti-friction device backward or forward on a delta angled track which then causes the toe of the boot to move up or down slightly. So in fact your are adjusting the binding delta slightly.

To obtain the proper toe height clearance a thin plastic shim (slightly thinner than a credit card) is placed on the AFD and the boot inserted in the binding. The AFD height is then adjusted so there is just enough clearance so there is a slight pull (a bit of friction) when the plastic shim is pulled back and forth. We are talking about a fraction of a mm in adjustment here so I doubt there is any noticeable difference in overall binding delta.

 

[Doug Briggs]

The concept is correct, but it isn't the spring, it is the design of the heel. Most lower DIN bindings are built to be light weight (and cheap) so the design is striped down and acts pretty much like a light switch. On or Off, no compensation for shock.

I agree with the cheap and lightweight part, but not the on/off analogy. I test hundreds of bindings ranging from 40 pound kids to Skier Type III+ giants. A properly functioning binding has elasticity in the toe and the heel regardless of DIN values. The heel will begin to open and return to closed on all bindings. The amount of force to open it will be consistent. Anything below the release point and it will begin to open then close when the force is reduced/removed. Anything over the release point and well... it releases.

 

[Doug Briggs]

With the demo Attack 13, as you say the top of the binding toe piece is fixed, so your boot DOES change height at the toe in order to obtain the correct clearances between boot toe and binding toe piece. This is accomplished by moving the anti-friction device backward or forward on a delta angled track which then causes the toe of the boot to move up or down slightly. So in fact your are adjusting the binding delta slightly.

To obtain the proper toe height clearance a thin plastic shim (slightly thinner than a credit card) is placed on the AFD and the boot inserted in the binding. The AFD height is then adjusted so there is just enough clearance so there is a slight pull (a bit of friction) when the plastic shim is pulled back and forth. We are talking about a fraction of a mm in adjustment here so I doubt there is any noticeable difference in overall binding delta.

For my own bindings, particularly those with a mechanical AFD, I adjust the toe of the boot and AFD so there is no gap. The bindings work well and test out properly on the Vermont Calibrator. I really dislike slop in my boot/binding interface and this reduces it, IMO.

I don't do this for customers as it isn't in compliance with the recommended settings from the binding manufacturers and that is the standard I have to meet for my customers. I have to put my signature on the legal document (binding release form) and I don't want to compromise the shop's legal position by not following the manufacturer's recommended settings.

 

[Emil]

Does anyone knows the heel adjustment range +/- ?mm on Marker squire 11ID.

We just tried the boots little brother inherited from big brother. The are perfect right now but lm worried that he need new boots during the season and I dont want to remount the skis. So I plan to mount them now for a slightly longer bsl but within adjustment range so a larger size would work.

 

[Philpug]

Does anyone knows the heel adjustment range +/- ?mm on Marker squire 11ID.

We just tried the boots little brother inherited from big brother. The are perfect right now but lm worried that he need new boots during the season and I dont want to remount the skis. So I plan to mount them now for a slightly longer bsl but within adjustment range so a larger size would work.

I would say in the 15mm +/- range.

 

[Slim]

I
Is there another recommended solution? I seem to recall a thread on Epic where someone referenced mounting bolts that are drilled into the skis, that allow you to swap bindings between skis.

Quiver killer is the one that I can think of:

https://quiverkiller.com/pages/about-quiver-killer

 

[ScottB]

Last years Attack demo is flat, 23mm.

I measured a 2 mm delta on the Attack demo's I just bought. I haven't finished mounting the toe, so pretty close to flat, not the big delta I thought. I am pleased.

 

[jmeb]

Quiver killer is the one that I can think of:

https://quiverkiller.com/pages/about-quiver-killer

bindingfreedom.com is another. I've heard a lot of people who prefer the latters inserts though I have no experience myself.

 

[Philpug]

I measured a 2 mm delta on the Attack demo's I just bought. I haven't finished mounting the toe, so pretty close to flat, not the big delta I thought. I am pleased.

Check the AFD, make sure it it up. I measured 23mm front and back