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Binding Mount Position, Stockli Laser AX, 183 cm, 2017-2018

Uncle-A

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Shorter boot, less surface area.

Though.... since it’s only the toe afd, and heel pad is in contact with the boot, the difference might be moot.

In terms of the torque on can apply- beyond my level to figure out. Because, it’s not as simple as a longer lever. The heel piece is further back, and a significant amount of force from the skier’s mass will go through that as it is. Then there’s the amount going through the ski between heel and toe. So the center of pressure will move forward if you flex forward but how much, and does the longer lever have much effect?
So... ? Hey, maybe you’re right.

Years ago Volkl used to do front of the boot marking on skis for binding mount. Think thst went away in the shaped ski era.
When you say shorter boot less surface area, it seems like you are comparing it to a snow tire, a narrow tread has more psi than a wide tire, and when it refers to tires you are correct. I don't think it applies to the foot inside a ski boot. As you pointed out the toe afd and heel are the boot contact points so if the heel is farther back it becomes a longer lever.
Yes, years ago many ski manufacturers marked their skis with front of boot marks and that included instructions to move the toe forward if the boot was larger than 10.5 old-school size. That did give way to center of boot sole, but it was earlier than the shape ski introduction. The last year I worked in a ski shop was around 1989 and boot center marks on skis had been around for several years already.
 

Uncle-A

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Tyrolia/Head EVO racing bindings have an adjustable AFD that can be moved fore/aft to change the pressure point position applied from the toe of the boot.
I wonder how much front to back movement it has because it still has to line up with the flat spot on the bottom of the boot.
 

ARL67

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If it's not aligned then the position will result in a change to the characteristics of the ski performance. I view these changes as a "compensation". The compensation may be either for a problem with fore/aft stance alignment, terrain/conditions preference, or lack of skier skills. But it is still a compensation for something and should be viewed as such.

@Noodler : in the last couple years I have often wondered about this "compensation" to fix a flaw with my own fore/aft stance ( boot lean issues or binding delta issues ), or my lack of skills. I generally prefer most skis at +0.5 or +1cm ( never +2 , and never minus ). I mentioned in another thread about really exploring my boot & binding setup next season. I'll direct any further comments to a future thread on the subject. Thanks again for your insights.
 

dan ross

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Shorter boot means greater pounds per square inch (PSI) over the length of the boot than a longer boot
with the same amount of (skier) weight . How this is meaningfully distributed over the ski is a bit of a head scratcher.
 
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ScottB

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Dan Ross, good explanation. Uncle-A, you used the word pressure, and by definition, the same force , weight, divided by the surface area of the boot, means less pressure with a bigger boot. Force is the correct term to use, not pressure. When you say you pressure the front of the ski, it really means you apply more force to it.

The whole subject is complicated and requires two people to have the same perspective to be understood
 
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ScottB

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Somewhat, but this is missing a critical concern (basically you're ignoring the facts about ski design from my previous post).

Skis are designed to be bent into an arc when put up on edge and pressured. The ski design really dictates the ideal position where the apex of that arc should be located. The mount position chosen has a direct relation to this ideal point. It's either aligned, forward, or backward of that point. If it's not aligned then the position will result in a change to the characteristics of the ski performance.

I fully understand what you are saying. I don't agree with all your assumptions, but your perspective is very interesting. I am referring mostly to your previous post. My experience has taught me some skis fit your theory and description and some don't. To say it another way, some skis are sensitive to mount point and some not as much. The Laser AX in my experience with the 183 cm length is in the not sensitive category. It has a lot of tip rocker for a carving ski and that changes the design relationship to the mount point.

I basically described what I felt. No comment on the theory behind it. I would be interested in sharing theories and experiences on mounting position. I have adjustable bindings on most of my skis and have moved them to see what effect it has. So far I would sum up my experience as it's hard to predict how a specific ski will respond and you just have to do what feels right for you.
 

Uncle-A

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Shorter boot means greater pounds per square inch (PSI) over the length of the boot than a longer boot
with the same amount of (skier) weight . How this is meaningfully distributed over the ski is a bit of a head scratcher.
Both you and @ ScottB are thinking about the boot as perfectly flat and the skier perfectly centered on the ski. But when you lean forward you are putting pressure on the front of the boot/ski so the pressure does act as a lever. Most bindings have some ramp with the heel being higher than the toe-AFD, so size of the boot does create a longer lever. In many cases the thickness of the ski changes under foot and the thickness is different with a longer boot sole so another situation when the boot has pressure at different points of the boot sole.
 

James

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But when you lean forward you are putting pressure on the front of the boot/ski so the pressure does act as a lever.
You mean boot?
Pressure is just a calculation, like horse power.
 
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ScottB

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Uncle A, I see your perspective. Since the toe of the boot and the heel are held from moving up or down, any force on the cuff, or upwards force on the boot will create a lever, or a moment force. (eng speak). If your heel and toe can rotate (AT setup) then there are no levers and all forces are just vertical. I think your weight force is much greater than any moment forces, FWIW.
 
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ScottB

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Been wanting to fill in this thread with details of my testing day a couple of weeks ago on the 183cm AX's. Skied Loon mtn in NH on some blue trails, winding cruisers. They were pretty well scraped off, with one trail with better snow for comparison purposes. I wanted to be on hard pack so it would be similar to my first day of testing with bindings at +2 and dull tips.

Sharpened tips this day (made a huge difference in tip grip, as you would expect).

+4 cm mount: This was my first run of the day and wanted to just go all the way forward and see what it felt like. Well, I though someone changed my skis on me. They turned very quick, made almost short radius turns, had very good grip, and could feel the whole edge engage including the tip. The combo of mount point and sharp tip really got rid of the GS turn feel of my first day out. At speed, the skis felt good, but maybe a little nervous feeling coming from the tip. I mentally felt too far forward on the skis, but they really skied fine, it was mostly in my mind. The heavy tip feel from the first day was completely gone, the skis didn't feel light, but they felt normal for a powerful carver. They are a combination of burly and cushioney. They kind of absorb everything, but will give back as much as you want depending on how hard you push them. I will need to get used to how they respond, as one turn they popped me about a foot off the snow exiting a turn. Another turn they did not. That is me needing to get used to the timing of releasing them and shifting my weight for and aft on them. These skis have significant tip rocker for a carving ski, and with me being that far forward, I could feel the tip being more engaged in the snow. I think the major consequence is a slightly nervous tip at high speeds. The ski did not feel out of balance or loose grip at the tip or the tail. Being that far forward didn't seem to bother the ski at all. That is pretty surprising and shows how versatile the ski really is. I made 2-3 runs at each mount point.

+2 cm mount: A bit longer turn radius, not quite as quick coming around, normal feeling tip (not heavy), and most everything else the same as +4. The too forward feeling went away and the tips were less nervous at speed. I felt pretty comfortable at this setting and started to push the ski more and relax on them a bit more. I was impressed the ski tips still engaged and pulled the ski into and around pretty well. This is when I realized sharpening the tip made quite a difference and the binding mount was more about how much force do you want on the tip to drive it around quicker and into a shorter turn. I felt good at this mount point and decided to set it here at the end of the day.

0 cm mount (factory line): They were still feeling very good at this position. The ski began to feel more GS turn shape (longer radius than +2) and I had to put more work in (bend it) to get it to do a med-short radius turn. I could sense just a very slight heavy feeling from the tip, mostly because of the first test day with a dull tip sensitized me to this. The nervous tip feeling at speed went away completely and the ski felt like it could be a high speed rocket. I can see how the factory decided to make this the recommended mount point. It gives the best balance of high speed cruising versus turn quickness and turn radius. I could have gone back 1 cm more on mount point, but I didn't bother based on what I was feeling. If you want to do a lot of high speed cruising and don't mind a little more work to get a quick turn, this would be the mount position I would choose.

All three mount locations feel good on this ski. I feels balanced everywhere and seems to just trade off turn radius and quickness for a little high speed stability. Basically if you want the ski to turn a little quicker and smaller radius, just move the binding forward. Unless you ski really, really fast, you won't be giving anything up. This is quite different than a lot of other skis I have experimented with. Typically they have a definite "sweet spot" that feels the most balanced and gives the best response while turning. I have had skis that their tips and tails wash out in turns as I move the bindings forward and back. Not the AX. It seems to have a wide range of mount position that the ski works well for.

I also made some runs on a steep black diamond trail with pretty good snow at all three positions. This is where I felt the nervousness at speed the most, especially on rough surfaces. I attribute it to the tip rocker and how much weight was on the tip of the ski. I chose +2 as my preferred mounting. I skied at that setting another day at Stratton, which has wide, smooth, and fast groomers. After that day I thought I might fine tune a bit by trying +1, +1.5, +2 . For this ski and a "clyde" skier I think that is the preferred range. For lighter skiers, I would say +2 to +2.5 as the best range. Check your tip bevels and sharpness, especially make sure the sharp edge extends forward of the tip contact point by a couple of inches. Lastly, I like the 0.5/3.0 bevels on my skis, but I can see why the factory makes the ski more forgiving by using a 1.3/2.0 tune. 2.0 will give plenty of grip for non-heavy weights, and 1.3 will make the ski more forgiving and less reactive to initial edging, hence easier to relax on.
 
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