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Steezus

Yucatan Suckaman
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Joined
Feb 23, 2019
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15
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Ketchum
Running cats is my passion and so is leaving the absolute best product as possible. I've worked for 3 resorts now and can safely say that the sad reality is that most resorts invest too little in their grooming programs so wages are really low leaving a revolving door of operators. It really takes 3-5 seasons before you get a competent operator in most cases. Farmers usually make terrible operators, modern equipment is much more complex than any farm equipment and lots of heavy equipment operators used to dirt never figure out grooming as traction on dirt is much different compared to snow.

Another problem is when a resort invests in a limited number of cats and doesn't pay very good wages for the mechanics. Cats require a ton of maintenance that can be very specialized. I am reluctant to name resorts, but one I worked at had one, two, or three cats broken down almost every night due to lack of experienced mechanics. That puts big pressure on the operators to get the usual amount of runs groomed with less equipment and usually results in poor grooming.

Most all resorts do use winches. Most seem to have at least 2. Even if a run does not seem very steep, if it gets a lot of traffic, the moguls get big or you need to move a lot of snow to patch problem areas and a free cat will struggle and dig holes with the tracks. Adding the winch is mind blowing with how much it changes what you can climb and plow uphill. Riders move an immense amount of snow downhill, so these machines need to be moving it back uphill every single night.

The last few years Prinoth machines have had tillers that are prone to leaving ridges between passes. Even a good operator can sometimes have a hard time eliminating these ridges in soft snow. Going over the ridge will only leave two bigger ridges as the snow gets softer. I hear Prinoth has found a possible fix and I hope that is true. Last year I would rather be running a Pisten Bully as the passes are seamless in the hands of a decent operator. Not many resorts run a mixed fleet, so those ridges can be a big problem for a Prinoth only resort.

I will name one resort and this is the resort I wish others would model their program off of. Deer Valley invests a ton of money in their operation and it really pays off. They pay their operators the best wages in the US that I know of and it stops the revolving door of operators and mechanics. That crew is staffed by a staggering amount of experience. I don't understand why other resorts do not follow their lead. Any chairlift I jump on with a stranger, the first thing I am going to hear about on a non powder day is how good or bad the grooming is. It is very important to your average rider.

And one other thing I will add is that even modern equipment does not really have a good answer for spring time slush. It is hard to climb, easy to start sliding down, and just looks like crap no matter what you do sometimes.

One thing I would ask you guys, would you rather have more runs groomed if it meant the quality was generally mediocre or less run, but great grooming quality? It seems most resorts value number of runs groomed and I often wonder if this is because they get more bad feedback when they have fewer runs groomed even though they look great. I feel like a poorly groomed run damages the reputation far more than lack of groomed runs.
 
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Paul Lutes

Making fresh tracks
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Excellent information, Steezus! Thanks!

I almost always prefer quality over quantity, but it feels like the impact of forcing more riders onto fewer well groomed runs might be a significant disadvantage. If you can hold rider density steady, then it's an easy call.
 

Bad Bob

I golf worse than I ski.
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@Steezus; fewer runs better groomed with regular rotation on the ones you groom less often. Having some bump runs is a good thing, or at least part of a run in bumps. Just keep your groomers out of my trees!

Interesting post. Good to hear things from the groomers perspective.
 

Ken_R

Living the Dream
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Denver, CO
One thing I would ask you guys, would you rather have more runs groomed if it meant the quality was generally mediocre or less run, but great grooming quality? It seems most resorts value number of runs groomed and I often wonder if this is because they get more bad feedback when they have fewer runs groomed even though they look great. I feel like a poorly groomed run damages the reputation far more than lack of groomed runs.

The more runs the better because it spreads out skier traffic and the runs will be in better shape longer during the day. Most skiers avoid moguls like the plague.
 

Lofcaudio

Getting off the lift
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Columbia, Missouri
Good grooming is fine, but it's also a function of skier traffic. I consider myself to have a pretty good pulse on the quality of the grooming in western NA. I find Deer Valley to be slightly overrrated in this regard (while underrated in other categories), mainly because almost everyone at Deer Valley is there sticking to the groomers. I don't care how good the operators or mechanics are, areas with high traffic are going to only have decent grooming for a very short period of time. If you really like skiing the corduroy, I would think you would really like those places where you can find corduroy for more than just one shot early in the morning. Those are going to be the less trafficked ski areas that employ quality grooming. Places where I have been that fit this description are: Telluride, Aspen Highlands, Aspen Mountain, Buttermilk, Snowbasin (weekday), and similar places just a little off the beaten path or that cater to skiers who are NOT looking to ski groomers. The bigger resorts have plenty of grooming, but it just doesn't last very long (if at all).
 

Lofcaudio

Getting off the lift
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Last edited:

Steezus

Yucatan Suckaman
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Feb 23, 2019
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15
Location
Ketchum
Yeah crowds will erase grooming and powder very quickly and I find the Wasatch Front and Front Range resorts are just very crowded these days. Even the powder at DV is skied off in the trees by midday, it used to last for days.

I think DV grooms more acreage for the size of the resort compared to most other resorts, by far and the quality from my vantage point is so much better than the other resorts I've been to. Resorts that I know of that run a comparable sized fleet all gang groom, which produces terrible results.

I have not skied Beaver Creek, but would love to see how their grooming program works. They seem to have a great program over there, but Vail pays so low that I won't ever actually groom at their resorts.

Resorts like the Aspen ones and Sun Valley enjoy less crowds and the corduroy lasts much longer, but when you have difficult nights or nights where they had a cat shortage, that means a lot of really bad grooming sticks around for people to see from the lift.
 

DanoT

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My home mountain, Sun Peaks, has award winning grooming, helped out by fairly cold, very dry air and rain is rare as well. This means very low moisture content in the snow pack.

One of the things that I have observed is that they groom about 100 runs regularly at a rate of about 30-40 per night but they almost always groom the same run two nights in a row.

I am wondering if something similar to the "two nights in a row run grooming plan" happens at other resorts?
 

Steezus

Yucatan Suckaman
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Ketchum
There's no reason that I know of to groom a run twice in a row before removing it from the rotation. The old tillers had shorter and less teeth on the cutter bar and it seemed that the longer you went without snow, the runs would get much, much icier. Now tillers have more teeth that are much longer and blades with much more aggressive teeth and to me it seems to process snow in a way that it doesn't ice over like that any more. Not sure if it adds more air or what, but I just don't see sheets of ice any more unless they were purposely put there in high traffic areas with either water or a very wet snowmaking base.

At all the resorts I have worked at though, it seems like once you add a new run to the list once it gets good coverage, it will be hit a few nights in a row because the guests and staff get excited to see new groomed runs pop up, but then other high traffic runs usually get left off the grooming list a few nights and need cats to get back to that run and fix it up.
 

DanoT

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The alternative is usually dirt, gravel & rock.
They are just looking out for your skis.
Feel better now?

I can remember skiing a narrow trail at Mt. Tremblant in spring conditions in the 1970's only to come upon a barren trail wide patch covered in straw. I haven't skied there or anywhere in the east since the early 70s so I don't know if they still do stuff like that.
 

David Chaus

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Groomers in the Rockies, however skied out they get, are still much nicer than coastal groomers. At Stevens Pass, they can groom a bunch of runs, and if you get them in the first hour they can be amazing, however with the maritime higher water content when they get skied out, ruts and small moguls form pretty quickly, so that anything on piste become off-piste by noon.

My first time to Alta, I was amazed at how much a groomed run still skied pretty much like a groomed run throughout the day, even if the corduroy was skied out to the point where you didn’t see the corduroy anymore. So even on a busy day, the “groomer experience” isn’t completely ruined by mid-day.

That all said, of the places I have been to, Sun Valley and Sun Peaks have had the best grooming with over the most terrain with the least people.
 

DanoT

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That all said, of the places I have been to, Sun Valley and Sun Peaks have had the best grooming with over the most terrain with the least people.

Yeah, Sun Valley is easily the best go fast groomer zoomer in North America. Sun Peaks is one of the best in Canada but doesn't really hold a candle to SV, except in late Feb. when Sun Peaks holds the only speed skiing event in North America, straight down the Big Headwall at 180+kms per hour. "The fastest non-motorized sport on the planet".
 

Steezus

Yucatan Suckaman
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Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Posts
15
Location
Ketchum
I have groomed at Sun Valley before. I enjoyed how steep it was, but they have a small fleet for the acreage of the mountain and do not groom a large amount of runs, variety of runs is something I really like to keep the job interesting.

One of the reasons I left though, I felt there was not a real emphasis on quality and instead it was on quantity. Even a lot of experienced operators would leave some really bad corduroy and it would stick around for so long. I heard so many complaints about it while riding the lift. I do not ever tell people I groom on the lift unless they start talking about the grooming, people just love to comment on it at some resorts.

If there was ever a resort that I feel like a real push for quality would pay off, it would be Sun Valley since nearly every run they groom has a good vantage point from a lift for everyone to see and cord lasts so long there! It's definitely got some of the best top to bottom rippers of any resort I have skied. And other than the short Lower River run, there is not any true green runs on that mountain.
 

Bad Bob

I golf worse than I ski.
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Commenting / Complaining about the snow conditions, grooming and weather are kind of universal for most skiers. Something we all experience but aren't going to do a thing about.

Until I started reading this thread I didn't even know I was supposed to covet untracked corduroy. Who knew :huh:
 

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