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James

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^
At some point you need to file side edges. Stones can't do it all. You should get a 7 degree guide and a panzar file to prepare the sides for filing.
Yep. Or listen to the people who think that’s unnecessary, get frustrated when you start filing, and give up. Common.

You don’t need that expensive file. You’re better off getting more cheaper ones. It’s also in the coarse range at 13 teeth/cm You could go with two Viiala files, coarse and 2nd cut at 6 inch for less than that. The advantage to a file with a tang is you can you use it on the end of the tip and sidewall/top sheet to bevel and clean them up. 8 inch is better for that, 6 inch for sidewalls.
You could get 3 of these for around $30. They are good files.

https://www.tognar.com/viiala-hard-chrome-mill-files-1st-cut/

https://www.tognar.com/viiala-hard-chrome-mill-files-2nd-cut/
 

KingGrump

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The link I posted are for the 4” files. Thinking I have been using stones the same size for the past few seasons so moving to files may have been easier.

Those are really nice files. They are a bit wider than the standard 100 mm files. Allows for several different clamping angles to keep the sharpening process moving before cleaning. I also like non-chrome files. They feel sharper, cut faster and has a better hand feel. The price is reasonable. One of those will last a long time.

If you see sidewall material on your file. trim the sidewall first to eliminate the inevitable frustration.
Agree with @Jacques , get a panzer file for side wall removal. Would be nice with a 7 degree guide but not necessary. Shim the panzer with a emery board like I described in post #31 above and you are good to go. Just don't tell your wife.

After the 1st cut file, you can ease the edges with 320 grit wet/dry paper wrapped tightly around a file before moving onto polishing with stones.
 

jmills115

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Those are really nice files. They are a bit wider than the standard 100 mm files. Allows for several different clamping angles to keep the sharpening process moving before cleaning. I also like non-chrome files. They feel sharper, cut faster and has a better hand feel. The price is reasonable. One of those will last a long time.

If you see sidewall material on your file. trim the sidewall first to eliminate the inevitable frustration.
Agree with @Jacques , get a panzer file for side wall removal. Would be nice with a 7 degree guide but not necessary. Shim the panzer with a emery board like I described in post #31 above and you are good to go. Just don't tell your wife.

After the 1st cut file, you can ease the edges with 320 grit wet/dry paper wrapped tightly around a file before moving onto polishing with stones.

I’m ready. I have a panzer, 3° guide, “shims”, and most important, a QST106 that is set to become my rock ski
 

KingGrump

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I’m ready. I have a panzer, 3° guide, “shims”, and most important, a QST106 that is set to become my rock ski

Why do I feel there is an edge grinder lurking in your future? :D :beercheer:
 

James

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Don’t forget a way to clean the files. A brass brush. A piece of wood. - Could be the handle to the brush. If you go along, parallel, to the grooves/teeth the wood will wear down and scrape the grooves clean. Effective for wax.
 

Dave Marshak

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I rarely use a file anymore, and the panzer is only for sidewall planing. If you keep after it, coarse stones are usually enough to get a good edge. Maybe for a race tune you need to use a file to chase down all the imperfections, and fine stones to finish it, but I find I get good grip using mostly the coarse stones.

I scored a Swix EVO edge grinder last March at a liquidation sale. That makes a nice edge faster than anything else I have, and it will probably be my main tool from now on.

dm
 

Doug Briggs

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I rarely use a file anymore, and the panzer is only for sidewall planing. If you keep after it, coarse stones are usually enough to get a good edge. Maybe for a race tune you need to use a file to chase down all the imperfections, and fine stones to finish it, but I find I get good grip using mostly the coarse stones.

I scored a Swix EVO edge grinder last March at a liquidation sale. That makes a nice edge faster than anything else I have, and it will probably be my main tool from now on.

dm

I'm inclined to agree with you @Dave Marshak , although to clarify, to maintain your edges with stones only, they first have to be set by a shop in a full tune. You can't set edge bevels with stones alone; you can maintain them, though.
 

Marin

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To be truthful, I don’t use a sidewall planer or back bevel my setups (though I like this idea better than planing).

I treat it as part of the exercise and it limits your cuts on the edge on each pass.....longer edge life. As to reduced file life, come on, file right the files last. Part of this is to use file caulk, the second is not to cut in the wrong direction as this wears out (destroys) the teeth on the file. Cut, lift, reset, repeat. Remember LIFT before RESET, don’t drag back!!!

Remember, just a 0.001 or two needs removing to sharpen, not 0.020 or more like some do. Generally I take about 0.003-5 off (because I don’t practice enough to get away with less) and touch up with a diamond to clean up
100% agree unless it is really old skis and lot of damage on side wall. If you chnage skis every few years, I would say I never had need to do this. You may see some ABS on file after few years here and there but that it not big of the deal. Just use small metal brush and clean it from file, one for Home depot work very good for $2.
It is not that I am not handy and do not know how to do it, but I watch lot of Race tuning videos and never seen they do this .
One thing I always do and never seen in any video , I use black marker and Evey half to 1 inch i make line on edge ( steel part) , then go with your file , when you remove it you DONE, nothing else do not need to do.

Here is the one video of professional tuner form Austria , he never use it at all, he did not even use File angel tool:

 
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Doug Briggs

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100% agree unless it is really old skis and lot of damage on side wall. If you chnage skis every few years, I would say I never had need to do this. You may see some ABS on file after few years here and there but that it not big of the deal. Just use small metal brush and clean it from file, one for Home depot work very good for $2.
It is not that I am not handy and do not know how to do it, but I watch lot of Race tuning videos and never seen they do this .
One thing I always do and never seen in any video , I use black marker and Evey half to 1 inch i make line on edge ( steel part) , then go with your file , when you remove it you DONE, nothing else do not need to do.

Here is the one video of professional tuner form Austria , he never use it at all, he did not even use File angel tool:


On the topic of sidewall planing. What is he cleaning off the bench at 25:14 after an edit? It looks to me like sidewall material. Despite not showing sidewall planing in the videos, I believe that it is being done. Ceramic edgers can work their way through sidewall plastic, but the job is done more quickly when they don't have to. I can state from personal experience that our Scout's disc edger gets the job done a lot more rapidly when I use the Grindrite to pull back the sidewalls. In fact the Grindrite's belts cut the sidewall much more readily than the disc edger.

Many skis have sloped sidewalls now. That reduces the need to pull them back, but does not eliminate it. Anytime you are running up against sidewall material while you are filing or stoning (especially) the edges, you are not getting the same results that you would get if you pull back the sidewalls. Stones and files can and do cut plastic, but not at the same rate as they cut metal. Since there are no world cuppers (that I'm aware of) on this site, I don't think that the minor variations that are introduced by filing sidewall at the same time you are filing edge matters.

I, too, use black marker on the edges sometimes to check that I'm actually attaining the edge bevels I'm setting. It is easier to see with my aging eyes than just file/stone marks on the edge. It is a very useful exercise for beginners and pros alike to insure their accuracy.
 

Dave Marshak

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I'm using a Swix EVO edge grinder now, and the sidewall will stall it every time if you don't pull it back. I think it's hard to get an accurate edge angle if you don't remove the sidewall, and the sidewall will fill up a stone pretty quickly as well. It's just better and easier to pull the sidewall back with a short piece of panzer file. Why skip the easy step if it makes the rest of the job harder?

dm
 

Tony S

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When you wash dishes, you stop when they're clean, not when you've wiped the sponge on them n times, right? I confess to being skeptical about the real-world value, for recreational skiers / amateur tuners, of asserting again and again that when you sharpen a ski you only need to take a tiny bit of metal off. Is it not obvious that it depends? It depends on how dinged up, rounded-off, or otherwise malformed the edge is. In fact, the amount of metal you need to take off is no more and no less than "the right amount." Sure, it might be only a tiny amount. Or it might be quite a bit.

Of course if you are always working on race skis that get very frequent tunes, don't get a lot of mileage, and are generally used where rocks and other nasties are sparse, then yes, you don't need to take off much. I see this on my own GS skis that pretty much only get used in the course and for a few warm-up free-ski runs beforehand. I've had them for something like five years and have never needed to take an actual file to them; diamond stones have been enough so far.

By contrast my other skis are always getting various kinds of significant burrs and shark bites from dirt, rocks, stumps, and other insults. Sometimes they need filing several times a season, if not a professional grind and edge work (which ALWAYS seems take off more than I manage with a file and a guide, btw).

And friends' skis ... don't get me started. Can't tell you how many times I have seen some amateur like me "sharpen" a ski that hasn't had a tune in two years, and it comes out of the process no sharper than it went in. In short my observation is that newbie tuners remove too LITTLE metal rather than too much. YMMV
 

Tony S

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I'm using a Swix EVO edge grinder now, and the sidewall will stall it every time if you don't pull it back. I think it's hard to get an accurate edge angle if you don't remove the sidewall, and the sidewall will fill up a stone pretty quickly as well. It's just better and easier to pull the sidewall back with a short piece of panzer file. Why skip the easy step if it makes the rest of the job harder?

dm

Makes sense to me.
 

KevinF

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my other skis are always getting various kinds of significant burrs and shark bites from dirt, rocks, stumps, and other insults. Sometimes they need filing several times a season, if not a professional grind and edge work (which ALWAYS seems take off more than I manage with a file and a guide, btw).

My non-race skis always seem to have a decent number of burrs by the end of the weekend from hitting "not snow'. Taking a 200 (or 100 if it's really bad) diamond stone to them seems to remove the worst of it, and enable it to hold well enough. I figure taking off enough metal to completely remove the imperfections isn't worth it as they're just going to get more imperfections the next time they're out.

And friends' skis ... don't get me started. Can't tell you how many times I have seen some amateur like me "sharpen" a ski that hasn't had a tune in two years, and it comes out of the process no sharper than it went in. In short my observation is that newbie tuners remove too LITTLE metal rather than too much. YMMV

I'm certainly not an expert ski-tuner, but my skis seem to hold well enough. I go by the sound of the stone... if it's making crunching sounds -- keep going. If the ski hasn't seen a tuning bench in a few years :eek: -- well, I'd be anticipating a LOT of "crunch".
 

Marker

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I got a Beast sidewall planer over the summer. I was surprised how much came off with some skis (Hero Elite LT) and how little with others (all mtn skis). Probably not surprising given the angle of the sidewalls, but I am new to this part of ski tuning.
 

mdf

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I got a Beast sidewall planer over the summer. I was surprised how much came off with some skis (Hero Elite LT) and how little with others (all mtn skis). Probably not surprising given the angle of the sidewalls, but I am new to this part of ski tuning.
I've also found that my dedicated sidewall tool works easily and well on some skis, but on others it was such a struggle that I went back to a short hand-held panzar file.
 

KingGrump

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On sandwich skis with two layers of metal, the metal layers usually converged near the tip and tail. The bladed side wall cutters often will have clearance issues at those locations to achieve a clean (chatter free) cut. A panzer will give a faster and smoother cut for those locations.
 

Marker

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On sandwich skis with two layers of metal, the metal layers usually converged near the tip and tail. The bladed side wall cutters often will have clearance issues at those locations to achieve a clean (chatter free) cut. A panzer will give a faster and smoother cut for those locations.
The Beast used a small section of panzer file, but I did notice more resistance at the tip and tail.
 

KingGrump

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The Beast used a small section of panzer file, but I did notice more resistance at the tip and tail.

The Beast sidewall planer is a decent tool. Mine came in a bit rough. Took some hand tuning for it to feel good in my hand. Switched the panzer from 40 mm to a 100 mm long unit. Works a lot faster. I have it in my VT tuning kit, so I don't see it much.
For the road, I use a SVST 3˚ stainless steel guide with an additional 3˚ shim. A spring clamp holds a 100 mm panzer for some pretty fast cutting.

The bladed side wall cutter is used only once during my pre-season tuning of all the skis. It makes short work of the side wall plastic in the center section of the ski where there are plenty of clearance between the two titanal sheets. I take the plastic off until the blade just hit the top of the bottom titanal plate. Then I bevel the bottom titanal sheet to the top of the side edge with a panzer on a 6 or 7 degree guide. Finishing up the side wall work with a free hand bevel of the top titanal plate and the top sheet. First with a 300 mm panzer. Followed with a 8" smooth file.

Smoothing the top sheet will kept the ski from cutting up my gloves.
 

Marin

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On the topic of sidewall planing. What is he cleaning off the bench at 25:14 after an edit? It looks to me like sidewall material. Despite not showing sidewall planing in the videos, I believe that it is being done.

It is hard to tell what is it , maybe you right.
At 34:15 min to the end he says something very important about ABS material.It is good to listened .



Of course if you are always working on race skis that get very frequent tunes, don't get a lot of mileage, and are generally used where rocks and other nasties are sparse, then yes, you don't need to take off much. I see this on my own GS skis that pretty much only get used in the course and for a few warm-up free-ski runs beforehand. I've had them for something like five years and have never needed to take an actual file to them; diamond stones have been enough so far.
Well , reading this we get to same point. My skis are taken only in groomers with lot of base snow, No rocks and ETC , so That why I probably did not need it. I do 99% Carving , so Trees , Rocks and ETC is not my cup of the tea ogsmile.
I also mention in my post unless they are to old or damage . I agree with you if you have lot of damage on metal , then in that case you will need to remove ABS material to make that edge back in good condition.
 
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