Base & side edge angle?

[Doug Briggs]

On race skis, I agree, I'm just deburring. On recreational skis though, I am more aggressive than just deburring especially at the tip and tail.

 

[OnEdge]

Define " NO DETUNE......EVER! ", please.



How old are the kids? How skilled? Kids do not need or want to be on the same bevels many are recommending above. Kids on skis 100 to 130 cm long, probably should have a 1/1 tune. Even race kids up to 13 to 15, except for the most talented of them, don't run 1/2 per their coaches. If I get a 150 mm GS ski with a request for .5 and 3, I call the parent and have a discussion with them about what is right and not so right for their athlete.

I'd love to hear from instructors that deal with kids with their opinions on what kids need in a ski tune. I could be all wet, but so far, I haven't had any parents give me bad feedback on the tunes they receive. Racer parents, yes, but that is because they want their U12 on skis tuned like Miki's (Mikaela Shiffrin).

As to setting up race skis for younger athetes no argument here again, I said 1/3 works for most and is a good starting ground. Personally I feel the base is important at 1, side a little less so. As to worrying if its 1, 2, 3 or 4 for that matter is really a null point, it matters more if a hanging burr is left accidentally and your light touch with a gummie ensures that this is not an issue.

I started tuning skis for my U8 and U10 daughters last year (east coast). After a fair bit of research and talking to a number of coaches I've been using a 1 on the base and a 2 on the sides. Many of the data points were 1 base and 3 side, but I personally found the more persuasive ones advocate for the 2 on the side angle for younger kids (even racers).

FWIW I've found that that freshness of the tune seems to matter the most (admitted pretty unscientific).

 

[François Pugh]

How to tell if your skis are sharp enough (recreational skis too), park skis and mogul skis excepted:
1) grab a ski with one hand near the top of the binding and another near the tip and twist the ski to test it's torsional rigidity;
2) If you did this without gloves and your hands are bleeding, they are sharp enough.
Kids do not need sharp weapons, mostly.

 

[NE1]

Define " NO DETUNE......EVER! ", please.

As a professional tuner, I always take a gummi, with almost no pressure, at a 45° angle to the edges following a tune, with a little more focus on a few inches of tip and tail, to remove excessive sharpness that cause 95% of recreational skiers trouble with overly sensitive skis. I may refer to this as detuning to the customer.

In the old days detuning was a completely different ball of wax. It involved taking a file at a 45° angle to remove any grip at all from the edges up to 12" from the tip and tail.

How old are the kids? How skilled? Kids do not need or want to be on the same bevels many are recommending above. Kids on skis 100 to 130 cm long, probably should have a 1/1 tune. Even race kids up to 13 to 15, except for the most talented of them, don't run 1/2 per their coaches. If I get a 150 mm GS ski with a request for .5 and 3, I call the parent and have a discussion with them about what is right and not so right for their athlete.

Doug,
Just a suggestion - Maybe you might think about using the words "touch up with a gummi" or something similar in lieu of "detune", which rings loud alarm bells for us old-timers!

 

[Sibhusky]

Yeah, I don't call a butterfly pass with the gummi to knock off burrs "detuning".

 

[Wilhelmson]

While a slight burr can develop from diamond stoning its quite insignificant so is it safe to assume that these nasty burrs are caused by metal file side edge tuning?

 

[oldschoolskier]

Burrs are caused by the direction in which the metal is removed. Cut into the edge, little or no burr, cut off the edge, burr is formed.

The simple explanation is metal is drag off the edge which causes the burr because it it not full cut. There are good sharpening details out there that are not ski related but very applicable.

While diamonds cause less burrs they still cause them in exactly the same fashion. Files if used correctly can cause almost no burrs.

It is about technique.

Finally the extremely light use of a gummie stone as @Doug Briggs mentioned ensures that no errant burr is left even with proper technique of stone or file.

Finally @Doug Briggs mentions difference in gummie use between high racer and regular skier. The difference here is one is just almost a burr (intentionally set for maximum edge) and a solid no burr sharp edge. Ultimate response vs controllable response for mere mortals.

To be fair @Doug Briggs likely (more than likely) knows more (and has forgotten more) than I’ve ever learned about tunes. While we call each other out, it is to ensure that those that read this information fully understand what is being brought forth.

Thanks Doug to playing the Ying to my Yang

 

[Swede]

1/1 for kids of that age, size and ability. 1/2 would be ok but I'd take a lot of the sharpness out of their edges with a gummi. I'm not suggesting rounding the edges with the gummi, just making them not sharp like an adult would use.

They don't need edges as much as they need glide. Kids need predictably slippery skis, so wax is much more important than edge.

I'd love to hear from instructors that deal with kids with their opinions on what kids need in a ski tune. I could be all wet, but so far, I haven't had any parents give me bad feedback on the tunes they receive. Racer parents, yes, but that is because they want their U12 on skis tuned like Miki's (Mikaela Shiffrin).

88 on all skis until U14, then maybe try 87 for SL. But s h a r p all the way. What you refer to as detuning (gummi stone) is not really detuning, I do it too for getting rid of burrs. Different thing. Bases on JR race comes ime 0.7-1 and no need to change. Just polish with a fine stone. A nice, sharp 88/1 works great and is much better than a half decent 0.5/87.

 

[Eleeski]

I put a metal cutting blade on a little table saw and set the blade angle at about 4 degrees. A quick pass and my edges are done. It takes longer to secure the brakes than to sharpen the edges. Definitely something doable before every firm snow day.

This technique leaves a somewhat rough edge. Awesome grip in ice. Like a serrated steak knife. It lasts reasonably well (my old crappy steak knives still cut after years of neglect too).

Now, a properly sharpened steak knife is the tool of choice for serious cooks. Of course, they will also choose Kobe steak which is so tender that you only need a butter knife. Still, the sharpened smooth tool is best.

A ski with ragged edges will be slower in a race than a polished edge. My preferred zero degree base bevel edge is also probably slower than a bit of bevel keeping both edges from engaging simultaneously. So if you have enough skill to notice this then absolutely put the effort into a quality tune.

But my inflexible skeleton and mediocre racing skills mean that having a consistent edge grip allows me to ski a better line - and get better times. Even if my skis are slower.

@Scotskier sold me a pair of magically tuned SL skis. I loved the first couple days! But I was never capable of getting tunes like that. My quick rough tune makes the skis as fun now and I can't notice the speed change. And they are sharp for every day they go out.

The coach for your kids should be able to recommend the best tune. If you aren't in a program like that, having the kids on sharp edges still matters. Worry about perfect edges later.

Eric

 

[oldschoolskier]

I put a metal cutting blade on a little table saw and set the blade angle at about 4 degrees. A quick pass and my edges are done. It takes longer to secure the brakes than to sharpen the edges. Definitely something doable before every firm snow day.

This technique leaves a somewhat rough edge. Awesome grip in ice. Like a serrated steak knife. It lasts reasonably well (my old crappy steak knives still cut after years of neglect too).

Now, a properly sharpened steak knife is the tool of choice for serious cooks. Of course, they will also choose Kobe steak which is so tender that you only need a butter knife. Still, the sharpened smooth tool is best.

A ski with ragged edges will be slower in a race than a polished edge. My preferred zero degree base bevel edge is also probably slower than a bit of bevel keeping both edges from engaging simultaneously. So if you have enough skill to notice this then absolutely put the effort into a quality tune.

But my inflexible skeleton and mediocre racing skills mean that having a consistent edge grip allows me to ski a better line - and get better times. Even if my skis are slower.

@Scotskier sold me a pair of magically tuned SL skis. I loved the first couple days! But I was never capable of getting tunes like that. My quick rough tune makes the skis as fun now and I can't notice the speed change. And they are sharp for every day they go out.

The coach for your kids should be able to recommend the best tune. If you aren't in a program like that, having the kids on sharp edges still matters. Worry about perfect edges later.

Eric

Quick question, is one side 86 and the other 94????

 

[Eleeski]

Depends on how many beers I've had...

Eric

 

[oldschoolskier]

Depends on how many beers I've had...

Eric

You could have said yes left turns soft snow right turn ice......

 

[jmeb]

I agree, if you detune you can’t ski

Lol. I'll let Eric Hjorleifson, Cody Townsend, and Doug Coombs know they can't ski.

Sometimes this forum is silly. Ever pro patroller I've met out west skis 1/1 or 2/1. If they even know what angle they are. And detune a good deal...if they ever tune. Most those folks can ski.

I like a good sharp ski. But saying people have different tune preferences can't ski?

@Alumacraft3 -- An 88/1 is a nice all around tune for skiing in the West. Looks like you may be in the midwest -- if so and you're skiing a lot of hard snow 87/1 may be preferable.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Goes in line with, you can’t ski, ice just proves it...

 

[GregK]

Most people that feel the need to detune a ski are usually on a ski that is out of tune with the most likely issue an edge high ski, high edge spots or uneven base bevels. All these base/side bevel angles are meaningless if the ski base isn’t flat. A ski will be unstable on base high skis and hard to turn on edge high skis regardless of edge angles.

So always check for flat bases first and then even after getting stone grind flat, check for high edge spots and THEN set your edge angles.

I always heavy detune/smooth ABOVE/BELOW the widest taper point on every ski as that part is not touching hard snow or effecting grip but can cause top sheet chipping issues on some skis. On many of the groomer skis mentioned in this thread this is just the extreme tip where they may even already have tip protectors but in wider, more tapered skis(Mindbenders etc) it will be a larger length.

I run full sharp tip/tail 1/3 tunes up to the widest taper point on all my skis except for my Moment powder skis that are like many independent manufacturers and have more detuning/smoothing tip/tails right from the factory.

ON3P, Moment, Praxis and many others are sharp 1/1 tunes underfoot but are factory detuned above camber contact points. Having these skis sharp above contact points makes them very grabby even in soft snow. My Moments have a sharp 1/2 underfoot up to the contact point so they grip well when I hit any hard snow but surf great in the trees as intended. My normal “sharp tip/tail tune” on previous Moment skis resulted in a hard to manage ski and a spectacular high speed crash.

So there definitely are exceptions to the “no detuning rule” on certain skis but feel most skiers feeling they “need to detune” their skis are experiencing issues that would be more properly cured with stone grinding and evenly resetting edge angles.

 

[Pross323]

I agree, if you detune you can’t ski

That’s a slight amount of gatekeeping I think, and also pretty unfair. I tune for a large group of senior skiers, many of who request some variant of detuning, allowing them to have the tune angles they want, but at a more appropriate (for them) turn engagement speed. Sorry for recycling an older thread, I’m new. Holla

 

[oldschoolskier]

That’s a slight amount of gatekeeping I think, and also pretty unfair. I tune for a large group of senior skiers, many of who request some variant of detuning, allowing them to have the tune angles they want, but at a more appropriate (for them) turn engagement speed. Sorry for recycling an older thread, I’m new. Holla

It is important to explain how tuning has changed and the importance of setting things up correctly. Those that care will find it enlightening and will be pleasantly surprised by a correct set up.

The easiest thing I found was to explain roll onto the edge and roll off the off the edge to get them into the correct time of mechanics.

 

[jfwalters1195]

Get a solid metal edge guide for a single angle. If you want more angles get more edge guides. The single angle solid metal ones work much better.

I like 1 base 2 (what you call 88) side for moguls, and 0.5 base 3 side for harder snow and on-piste. You would probably be happier with 1 base 3 side; a lot of folk find they prefer 1 base over 0.5 base because the 0.5 base is too responsive for them. Stock is most likely 1 base. Powder skis can be whatever edges they came with so long as you only ski powder, but if you encounter some hard crust or ice it's nice to have an edge that's sharp.

Edges get touched up almost every day, bases hardly ever, but not never.

I'd like to tune the side angle to 3degrees on my Blizzard Bonafieds. When I checked the factory angles, they are listed as 2.8 degrees for the base and 0.7-1.1 for the side edge. Any idea why it opposite just about every other ski brand? I assumed they would be 1 degree +/- for the base and maybe 1-3 degrees for the side bevel. That base bevel standard is listed for every Blizzard ski, so I'm guessing its not a typo error for the 22 Blizzard skis on the factory setting list on the Evo website.

 

[James]

I'd like to tune the side angle to 3degrees on my Blizzard Bonafieds. When I checked the factory angles, they are listed as 2.8 degrees for the base and 0.7-1.1 for the side edge. Any idea why it opposite just about every other ski brand? I assumed they would be 1 degree +/- for the base and maybe 1-3 degrees for the side bevel. That base bevel standard is listed for every Blizzard ski, so I'm guessing its not a typo error for the 22 Blizzard skis on the factory setting list on the Evo website.

It’s just reversed.
Blizzard isn’t that mentally challenged to put a 2.8 degree base bevel on their skis. Believe EVO or common sense.

Just like you can put whatever brand/type tires you want on a car, you can put whatever bevels you want on a ski. O.7 to 1.0 base, 2 or 3 side for Bonafide is good. Up to you.

 

[François Pugh]

That base bevel standard is listed for every Blizzard ski, so I'm guessing its not a typo error for the 22 Blizzard skis on the factory setting list on the Evo website.

I think they just got it backwards when they wrote up the spec on an electronic document. It's amazing how far one little error can carry with copy and paste.