Base & side edge angle?

[Alumacraft3]

I’m looking to upgrade my tuning equipment. This will be for recreational skiing not racing on a variety of skis from narrow kids skis to wider powder skis. Do I need to get adjustable edge and base tuners or is a 1 degree angle on the base and 88 on the edge good for all skis and conditions?

 

[François Pugh]

Get a solid metal edge guide for a single angle. If you want more angles get more edge guides. The single angle solid metal ones work much better.

I like 1 base 2 (what you call 88) side for moguls, and 0.5 base 3 side for harder snow and on-piste. You would probably be happier with 1 base 3 side; a lot of folk find they prefer 1 base over 0.5 base because the 0.5 base is too responsive for them. Stock is most likely 1 base. Powder skis can be whatever edges they came with so long as you only ski powder, but if you encounter some hard crust or ice it's nice to have an edge that's sharp.

Edges get touched up almost every day, bases hardly ever, but not never.

 

[Steve]

A second vote for 1 base and 3 side (87 degrees.)

I have my base edges set at .5 knowing they'll become 1 pretty quickly, so all I have for the base edge is a 1 degree bevel guide and I only use fine stones very lightly on my base edges.

Keeping the sides at 3 degrees will give you good grip on hard snow and will make little if any difference in soft snow.

 

[oldschoolskier]

One thing that everyone forgets is the net angle, 1/3 is 88 and 1/2 is 89. This combination of numbers defines grip in harder snow conditions. Lower number is ideal.

I agree with the rest, a 1/3 combination give the best of all worlds, forgiveness, responsiveness, grip and not too grippy. Almost all skis and skiers are well served by this and should be considered the starting point.

Finally, how well this feels on the ski depends on how well the edge is finished, read “no hanging burrs”.

 

[Alumacraft3]

Ok thanks. What files should I purchaese to get a good finished edge from start to finish for both base and side? I’m looking at Toko and Swix. What about detuning the tips and tails? Any suggestions or opinions on that? Would you go 1/3 combination for carving and all mountain skis and 1/2 combination for powder?

 

[Henry]

The only disadvantage of a more acute edge angle in soft snow (1/3, etc.) is when you hit a rock a bigger divot is knocked out of the edge.

Any real ski tuning files, including those you mentioned, will do a good job. Get a medium and a fine file. More expensive ones are best for a high volume tuner. I like a diamond stone (file, whatever) for just the light touch. The amount of steel edge remaining on your skis is part of the life of those skis; take off as little as possible to get the job done. Hardware store files are too soft for ski edges.

I never detune. I want sharp edges all the way from the front contact point to the rear contact point with the snow. Others prefer things differently. Leave them sharp, carry a small stone or piece of abrasive cloth in your pocket. See what you like. Dull them if you want. The edges of the shovel's curve need to be rounded so they don't grab the side of a frozen rut and throw you around.

My preference for hard snow is a bottom edge angle of 0.7° or 0.75° and 3° sides. That can take a bit of getting used to. The first year I feathered the front foot and back half-foot to 1° on the bottom. That gave easier engagement.

 

[Sibhusky]

I don't "detune". I ease the base bevel a bit beyond the contact points to reduce the chance of a surprise grab due to snow unevenness. I.E., of the base is 1°, then get a 1° guide and press a bit in that area to lift the engagement with the snow surface. The edge is still sharp. To me, detuning means actually ROUNDING the edge. Sometimes I want all the edge I can get. I've actually had ski shop techs tell me they always detune about 8 inches. I want to scream, "Are you nuts????" (True sign of someone not brought up right...)

On new skis, I progressively head towards the amount of easement needed over time. So for a while the skis are grabbing and bear careful attention until we've gotten to a comfortable point.

 

[François Pugh]

I like all my skis razor sharp tip to tail - even my antique (~70 m sidecut radius) speed skis.
IMHO, if you need to detune your skis you are on the wrong skis.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Ok thanks. What files should I purchaese to get a good finished edge from start to finish for both base and side? I’m looking at Toko and Swix. What about detuning the tips and tails? Any suggestions or opinions on that? Would you go 1/3 combination for carving and all mountain skis and 1/2 combination for powder?

Sorry for posting this way.

NO DETUNE......EVER!

Base angle is what detune tried to do years ago, it does what its supposed to, control when a ski engages. 0.5 base almost immediate, 1 base allows for a bit of leeway, 2 nearly forever to engage.

Second, a 1/3 is as strong and damage resistant as a 1/2, for that matter a 0.5/4 is also as strong (I ski this and love it). We are talking about a net edge angle of 86.5 or 88 or 89. The only difference is it may be slightly more visible, but the damage is the same. So on 89 (1/2) you won’t see it as fast, but your edge hold will still suck as bad.

Finally a 1/3 is a good all around setting, powder.....I leave the advice here to those that ski it exclusively, me of the opinion ski the same all around (for me its 0.5/4, yes love the reponse, love the bite, ski well or suffer type setup).

 

[oldschoolskier]

I like all my skis razor sharp tip to tail - even my antique (~70 m sidecut radius) speed skis.
IMHO, if you need to detune your skis you are on the wrong skis.

I agree, if you detune you can’t ski

 

[François Pugh]

I would phrase it more like, "If you don't want you ski tips to grip tightly and instantly turn you and your ski tails to hang onto the turn with a death grip, don't detune your FIS SL skis; trade them in on a pair of freeride skis."

 

[NE1]

Base angle is what detune tried to do years ago,

Love this. Run, run, run from a shop that detunes no matter what the customer asks for!

 

[oldschoolskier]

I would phrase it more like, "If you don't want you ski tips to grip tightly and instantly turn you and your ski tails to hang onto the turn with a death grip, don't detune your FIS SL skis; trade them in on a pair of freeride skis."

Freeride, park skis have edges

 

[NE1]

Freeride, park skis have edges

But not very good ones after a few rails or granite kisses, I'll bet!

 

[Doug Briggs]

Sorry for posting this way.

NO DETUNE......EVER!

Base angle is what detune tried to do years ago, it does what its supposed to, control when a ski engages. 0.5 base almost immediate, 1 base allows for a bit of leeway, 2 nearly forever to engage.

Second, a 1/3 is as strong and damage resistant as a 1/2, for that matter a 0.5/4 is also as strong (I ski this and love it). We are talking about a net edge angle of 86.5 or 88 or 89. The only difference is it may be slightly more visible, but the damage is the same. So on 89 (1/2) you won’t see it as fast, but your edge hold will still suck as bad.

Finally a 1/3 is a good all around setting, powder.....I leave the advice here to those that ski it exclusively, me of the opinion ski the same all around (for me its 0.5/4, yes love the reponse, love the bite, ski well or suffer type setup).

Define " NO DETUNE......EVER! ", please.

As a professional tuner, I always take a gummi, with almost no pressure, at a 45° angle to the edges following a tune, with a little more focus on a few inches of tip and tail, to remove excessive sharpness that cause 95% of recreational skiers trouble with overly sensitive skis. I may refer to this as detuning to the customer.

In the old days detuning was a completely different ball of wax. It involved taking a file at a 45° angle to remove any grip at all from the edges up to 12" from the tip and tail.

How old are the kids? How skilled? Kids do not need or want to be on the same bevels many are recommending above. Kids on skis 100 to 130 cm long, probably should have a 1/1 tune. Even race kids up to 13 to 15, except for the most talented of them, don't run 1/2 per their coaches. If I get a 150 mm GS ski with a request for .5 and 3, I call the parent and have a discussion with them about what is right and not so right for their athlete.

 

[Wilhelmson]

1-88 is fine. My kastles came with a .5-88 so i go with it. Maybe i will get a grind and try .75-87 for a little more slop in the woods. As long as they are sharp it doesnt really matter. I bet Franois could beat me on some crappy old skis but i would be faster

I do the same a Mr Briggs above but 1-2 is good on our fine hard snow and my oldest at least skis rather quickly well sometimes.

Get the metal 88 and forget about it until at least January.

 

[Alumacraft3]

Define " NO DETUNE......EVER! ", please.

As a professional tuner, I always take a gummi, with almost no pressure, at a 45° angle to the edges following a tune, with a little more focus on a few inches of tip and tail, to remove excessive sharpness that cause 95% of recreational skiers trouble with overly sensitive skis. I may refer to this as detuning to the customer.

In the old days detuning was a completely different ball of wax. It involved taking a file at a 45° angle to remove any grip at all from the edges up to 12" from the tip and tail.

How old are the kids? How skilled? Kids do not need or want to be on the same bevels many are recommending above. Kids on skis 100 to 130 cm long, probably should have a 1/1 tune. Even race kids up to 13 to 15, except for the most talented of them, don't run 1/2 per their coaches. If I get a 150 mm GS ski with a request for .5 and 3, I call the parent and have a discussion with them about what is right and not so right for their athlete.

kids are 4 and 6. Still doing the pizza. Will work on parallel turns with the 6 year old this year. What do you suggest for their skis? 100cm for 6 year old 80cm for the 4 year old.

 

[Doug Briggs]

kids are 4 and 6. Still doing the pizza. Will work on parallel turns with the 6 year old this year. What do you suggest for their skis? 100cm for 6 year old 80cm for the 4 year old.

1/1 for kids of that age, size and ability. 1/2 would be ok but I'd take a lot of the sharpness out of their edges with a gummi. I'm not suggesting rounding the edges with the gummi, just making them not sharp like an adult would use.

They don't need edges as much as they need glide. Kids need predictably slippery skis, so wax is much more important than edge.

I'd love to hear from instructors that deal with kids with their opinions on what kids need in a ski tune. I could be all wet, but so far, I haven't had any parents give me bad feedback on the tunes they receive. Racer parents, yes, but that is because they want their U12 on skis tuned like Miki's (Mikaela Shiffrin).

 

[Wilhelmson]

Unless the edges are messed up just polish them with the appropriate guide and stone.

kids are 4 and 6. Still doing the pizza. Will work on parallel turns with the 6 year old this year. What do you suggest for their skis? 100cm for 6 year old 80cm for the 4 year old.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Define " NO DETUNE......EVER! ", please.

As a professional tuner, I always take a gummi, with almost no pressure, at a 45° angle to the edges following a tune, with a little more focus on a few inches of tip and tail, to remove excessive sharpness that cause 95% of recreational skiers trouble with overly sensitive skis. I may refer to this as detuning to the customer.

In the old days detuning was a completely different ball of wax. It involved taking a file at a 45° angle to remove any grip at all from the edges up to 12" from the tip and tail.

How old are the kids? How skilled? Kids do not need or want to be on the same bevels many are recommending above. Kids on skis 100 to 130 cm long, probably should have a 1/1 tune. Even race kids up to 13 to 15, except for the most talented of them, don't run 1/2 per their coaches. If I get a 150 mm GS ski with a request for .5 and 3, I call the parent and have a discussion with them about what is right and not so right for their athlete.

Doug I respect your knowledge, and what you do with a gummi is ensure that there are no burrs, IMHO this is not a “DETUNE”, I don’t use a gummi period, because I know how not to leave a burr (lots of metal working experience).

Unfortunately, most think of the old school detune when you say “Detune” and this is falls under never ever!!!!!!!

As to setting up race skis for younger athetes no argument here again, I said 1/3 works for most and is a good starting ground. Personally I feel the base is important at 1, side a little less so. As to worrying if its 1, 2, 3 or 4 for that matter is really a null point, it matters more if a hanging burr is left accidentally and your light touch with a gummie ensures that this is not an issue.

True definition of “Detune”....tuned to spec, and now take it out of spec by “DE-tuning-it”. As far as I concerned what you do, is not a detune. Clean up a tune maybe but never the “D” word.

So I’ll stick by my statement.

NO DETUNE EVER!!!!!!!!Even if hell freezes over!!!!!

BTW that excessive sharpness is called a Burr, you just can’t see it or feel it. Again metal working knowledge.