International (Europe/Japan/Southern Hemisphere) Austria vs North America

[James]

Thanks for taking the time to answer. It was a serious question. In my very limited experience skiing in Europe, there were runs like this that were unmarked that I did ski for similar reasons as you note. Especially if I saw others on it as well - which in itself is not enough to make it 'safe' enough.

If something looks really good, and no one else is on it, you need to have a good reason and/or sufficient experience to assume it is actually safe. For inbounds skiing in US, I simply don't think about any of this since it is all patrolled. And I am not up early enough to be first one down.

Sorry for the earlier response. Jacob laid it out. For one, you can ride that lift and see the whole terrain. It’s also skied regularly, so it gets packed. If there had just been a lot of fresh snow then you have to know more and would skip it. Assuming it wasn’t controlled already. More as in the storm, history of that area, snow pack underneath. There had been a lot of warm wet slides in the week earlier all over, but most lower altitude. This area never slid.

Tracks by themselves do not mean a slope is safe. Places like Big Sky the lack of tracks often mean rocks.
Also, just because one is with a guide doesn’t make it safe.

 

[fatbob]

Just for a bit of balance I don't think anyone should take away from this thread that all Euro ski areas are powder paradises. Frequency and intensity of storms needs to be taken into account and it is pure luck if your first day on any trip (except a vaery last minute pow chasing trip) delivers you meaningful goods. Sustained multiweek storm cycles (like you can get in the Sierra or Pac NW) are rare but high pressure patterns stalling over Western Europe can be common.

Secondly I just think it's a fallacy that "no-one skis offpiste in Europe" - almost anywhere you've heard of will have a significnat population of locals and ski bums living and all-mountain visitors precisely there for such opportunities. Better to think of it as "not every Gorb, Jerry and his dog skis off piste"

 

[jmeb]

Yep -- good to point out there is a ton of variability in snowfall across resorts in the Alps. There are deep snowpack places, and places that look more like Sun Valley in their winter weather. Most of the famous tend towards the latter.

 

[Jacob]

Just for a bit of balance I don't think anyone should take away from this thread that all Euro ski areas are powder paradises. Frequency and intensity of storms needs to be taken into account and it is pure luck if your first day on any trip (except a vaery last minute pow chasing trip) delivers you meaningful goods. Sustained multiweek storm cycles (like you can get in the Sierra or Pac NW) are rare but high pressure patterns stalling over Western Europe can be common.

Secondly I just think it's a fallacy that "no-one skis offpiste in Europe" - almost anywhere you've heard of will have a significnat population of locals and ski bums living and all-mountain visitors precisely there for such opportunities. Better to think of it as "not every Gorb, Jerry and his dog skis off piste"

The thing with many European resorts is that, when it does snow, it doesn't all get skied out within a couple of hours. As long as it's not windy or warm, you can often find nice patches of snow to ski two or three days after a storm without going out too far. So even though it doesn't snow as often, I find it more enjoyable skiing off-piste in the Alps.

I find that the best places to go to avoid competition are "family" resorts. Places like Chamonix, St. Anton, and Verbier draw lots of off-piste skiers, while places like Arosa or Les Diablerets have some fun terrain but don't get as many off-piste skiers because they are known more for being family destinations. So if you go outside of the school holidays, then it's much easier to get turns in untouched snow.

That said, I'm still at nearly 50% of my ski days in the Alps having low visibility due to snowfall. I've had two or three trips that didn't have any new snow for the entire week, but most trips include some snowfall at least one or two days while I'm there.

 

[Swiss Toni]

There seems to be some confusion about the definition of ‘ski routes’ and the measures taken to prevent avalanche damage to ski lifts, this isn’t surprising as most the relevant information is only available in the local languages.

'ski routes' or 'itiniaries' are ungroomed, but avy-controlled and patrolled when open (and within 25 m left and right of the diamond-shaped markers).

If you take a look at guidelines for the Tiroler Pisten-Gütesiegel (Tyrolean Seal of Approval for Ski Pistes) https://www.tirol.gv.at/sport/richtlinien-initiativen/sport-guetesiegel/pistenguetesiegel/ issued by the Tyrolean regional government it states that: “Skirouten sind allgemein zugängliche, zur Abfahrt mit Ski vorgesehene und geeignete Strecken, die nur vor Lawinengefahr gesichert, jedoch weder präpariert nochkontrolliert werden müssen” Ski routes are generally accessible routes, foreseen for descent on skis that are only protected against avalanche danger, but neither need to be prepared nor controlled and that: “Bei geöffneten Skirouten ist die Lawinensicherheit nur im unmittelbaren Bereich der Markierung gegeben.” For open ski routes protection from avalanches is only provided in the immediate area of the marking.

Obviously, the ski area operators may do more than the required minimum, but it would be unwise to assume that they do.

The pisteurs usually do avi control on terrain like that to prevent damage to the lift towers.

It would also be unwise to assume that this is the case. Unless the slope on which a ski lift is built is inherently avalanche safe the lift has to be designed and constructed to withstand avalanches without damage, if you look at the lift tower nearest to where James is standing in the photo he posted above you can see that it has been built on elevated foundations in order to prevent it being damaged by an avalanche. They do however have to ensure that avalanche safety is guaranteed in the event of a rescue after a breakdown, how this is carried out is specific to each lift and detailed in the avalanche protection concept for the lift and associated piste. https://www.vedur.is/gogn/snjoflod/varnarvirki/snow2019abstracts/Snow2019_SIEGELE_eabstract.pdf

 

[BobtheGoat]

I think the OP has abandoned us, so now we're just discussing the differences between European and US ski areas.

nope!

 

[Jacob]

Here's another video of the the kind of terrain you can find just off the side of the piste in Austria (Ischgl this time).


As you can tell, there's been some fresh snow, but not a huge amount. At the top, you can see they're alternating between wind-affected snow and sheltered snow. But eventually, they traverse over to some terrain that was completely sheltered from whatever wind was blowing, so the snow is nicer. All the time, the piste is just off to the skier's left.

When you're doing lift-served off-piste skiing without a guide, this is the kind of terrain you'll realistically be looking at.

(BTW, I did not like those guys' line choices. I think they wasted far too much of the vertical traversing and bypassed some relatively long lines that had good snow in order to ski a line that was shorter and had worse snow than much of what they skied past.)

 

[James]

Here's another video of the the kind of terrain you can find just off the side of the piste in Austria (Ischgl this time).


As you can tell, there's been some fresh snow, but not a huge amount. At the top, you can see they're alternating between wind-affected snow and sheltered snow. But eventually, they traverse over to some terrain that was completely sheltered from whatever wind was blowing, so the snow is nicer. All the time, the piste is just off to the skier's left.

When you're doing lift-served off-piste skiing without a guide, this is the kind of terrain you'll realistically be looking at.

(BTW, I did not like those guys' line choices. I think they wasted far too much of the vertical traversing and bypassed some relatively long lines that had good snow in order to ski a line that was shorter and had worse snow than much of what they skied past.)

Yeah the relevant part for the op is they rejoined the piste before the rollover at the end.
He'll still want to know how they knew it was ok. Pictures and even video give a limited view and it's just a moment with no history.

 

[Seldomski]

Here's a ski route at St. Anton. Notes the orange/red diamond trail marking. Snowed 6-12" day before:


Here's an unmarked 'off piste' trail that follows the lift. It was a few hundred meters long and was moguls the day before. They just were covered up.



And here's what off piste with a guide looks like

 

[Jacob]

Here's an unmarked 'off piste' trail that follows the lift. It was a few hundred meters long and was moguls the day before. They just were covered up.

View attachment 77997

This second picture is sometimes a groomed black, depending on snow coverage. But sometimes, they leave it untouched, though loads of people still ski it.

That's a good lift to lap when it's dumping. It only takes you a little bit above tree line, so don't have to ski too far before you're back among the trees and can see again. When it's dumping, they usually leave that part your photo is from untouched. And sometimes, even the lower section is left ungroomed, depending on just how hard it's snowing.

 

[DanishRider]

I might be

Hello,
I am thinking of skiing in Austria this January. I have skied extensively in the western US and Canada (NA) but never in Europe and I had a few questions:
1. Looking at trail maps, it seems that "reds" in Austria are even more prevalent than "blues" in NA, to the point where some areas (like skoll) only have ~5% black. Are reds substantially harder in Austria than blues in western NA?
2. Are "ski routes" like double blacks in NA, or more like general off-trail but inbounds terrain?
3. My wife is just moving on from greens--she can do some blues at Crystal in Washington. Will she be fine on blues and moving into reds out there?

For reference, I would say I'm advanced-expert. I tend to go for double-black skiing. I ski only in bounds (nowhere needing avvy gear), but frequently hike-to. I've skiied most of Crystal's and Steven's Pass' terrain in Washington, and, for example, also have hiked and skied the peak in Telluride, and am no stranger to Spanky's Ladder and the Chimney at Blackcomb. I was thinking St. Antons, or maybe Gastein or SkiWelt. We have to do Austria because if we go we want to visit Vienna. Any thoughts on those resorts, or information on my questions?

Thanks,

I might be of service here, since i ski a lot in Austria First of all, the eastern alps in Austria, tend to be "rolling hills", compared to the western Austrian "mountains" in Tirol and Arlberg. That doesn't mean that you cannot find a challenge in the east, but the general layout of the mountains is different and softer. For challenging overall skiing head west and/or south. The needs of you wife might be different, and then you need to compromise, and find somewhere both big and versatile. Warth/Lech have been mentioned, and good options. Zillertal (Mayrhofen etc) and Paznautal (Ischgl, See Kappl) might also be good options, but you will also find plenty of options around Innsbruck.

Now to the grading of pistes. You cannot really use grading as a general meassure among areas, since it is unique to the mountains. If an area wanna attract rich people that don't like hard skiing, the will grade a big deal of the skiing blue, and that might be considered red in other places. Also they do the grading relative to the rest of the area, since no area want 90% black. Among countries you have variation too, and many black in France are not groomed, while that is rarely seen in Austria. For skiroutes, it is normally patrolled and safe "offpiste", but also tracked out pretty fast, to the level where i almost becomes a piste.

If you have skied places like Kitz, then you really don't see many good skiers, since most people are there to be seen in town (many anyway), rather than skiing tons of miles. Going to St. Anton, you will many really good skiers there.

If i can help you in any way, or you have any questions, you should't hesitate to reach out

 

[Johnfmh]

Good thread. I have made multiple ski trips to the Arlberg and also skied Ischgl, Schladming, Hauser Kaibling, Rohrmoos, Bad Gastein, and Sölden. I have visited many other resorts in warmer months, including Zell-am-see/Kaprun, Maria Alm, Semmering, Süd Tyrol (now part of Italy) and many more. I have made at least 20 trips to Austria, usually flying from Washington to Vienna. Vienna is like a second home and I have travelled to every corner of the country. I have also skied Crystal Mountain in the PNW—great mountain with some gnarly double black terrain that is above my ability level.

Most issues about skiing in Austria have been well-covered but I want to emphasize a couple of points:

1. In most places (especially the Arlberg), it is highly advisable to hire a guide for off piste skiing. You can’t do the famous Valluga run without one. Hidden cliffs, rocks, gullies, and severe avalanche danger is par for the course on many off piste ski runs in the Arlberg. If a private guide is too costly, consider going with a guided group. For challenging inbounds, I recommend the ski routes off of Galzig and Schindler. Madloch is fun and interesting but not too challenging. Rüfikopf has an interesting route leading to Lech. For some steepish blacks, check out Warth.

2. There’s more to the Austrian experience than skiing. Mountain restaurants, après ski, unique hotels, and charming village to village skiing complete the experience and add gemütlichkeit to the trip. We have nothing like this in N. America as a total package—pieces yes but in totality at a single area, no. Long lunches on the mountain are the thing. Be sure to try it.

3. Air tickets can be very cheap last minute to Europe in the winter. I am usually able to fly Washington to Zurich RT for around $1,000, booking flights 1-2 weeks before departure. Hotels can also be cheap if booked last minute through the Arlberg tourist offices at whatever base you choose. Last minute, one can also book less than 7 night trips, making a multi resort trip more doable.

4. Crowds can really suck. Avoid February at all costs. Crowded slopes can be the most challenging aspect of inbounds Arlberg. Downloading from Galzig at the end of the day at St. Anon might be advisable under certain conditions.

5. Finally, save some time for Vienna. Winter is a great time to go. It’s devoid of tourists. The city will be yours whatever your interests may be and if you want to abandon your group and get more turns, Semmering is not far by train—a lovely mountain but fairly tame. If there’s good snow, Jasna is neighboring Slovakia has some good off-piste off the southern side of the mountain (chopok juh). It’s a four hour drive from Vienna on a good highway. No guides are needed at Jasna but ask a local to show you how to access the Juh slopes. Also, Jasna can be absurdly crowded so go midweek during an offpeak period.

 

[James]

Good point about downloading. There are many reasons to do it. Sometimes it’s just quicker too, with a wide skillset group, to get to another lift.

Sounds line Austria can be the most crowded in Europe?

 

[Cheizz]

Sounds line Austria can be the most crowded in Europe?

Generally, I would say so. It attracts not only the Austrians, but also most Chechs, Germand and Dutch. In France, However, it can be very busy too, in French holidays mostly. Especially La Plagne is brutal. And big resorts close to big cities. But not as crowded as Austria during high season. My experience, at least.

 

[Cheizz]

Just found this: a small guide to off-piste skiing in Europe... Not sure if it's any good. You be the judge of that.

 

[Ulmerhutte]

St Anton - off-piste, without a guide, but between 2 pistes:

 

[Jacob]

St Anton - off-piste, without a guide, but between 2 pistes:

Is that on the Rendl side?

 

[Wilhelmson]

OK, lets see what I have learned.

Differences

Going off trail in Europe without a guide is too dangerous for most people. Stay within the markers.

Most on trail terrain in Europe is groomed and then groomed some more.

Whiteout conditions are more frequent at high elevation in Europe.

Skiing and lodging can be less expensive in Europe.

The ski experience, food, libations, can be more rewarding in Europe.

Similarities

Buys weekends and holidays are crowded almost everywhere.

Conditions, terrain, and difficulty varies from place to place

 

[Ulmerhutte]

Is that on the Rendl side?

I could tell you, but then I would have to kill you!

...actually it is on Galzig. Called Zwischen by some.

 

[Jacob]

I could tell you, but then I would have to kill you!

...actually it is on Galzig. Called Zwischen by some.

I’m still not recognising it. Is it the bit leading to the skiable gully to the skier’s right of the Galzigbahn?