International (Europe/Japan/Southern Hemisphere) Austria vs North America

[scott43]

I should also say that Austria is not shy about making snow unlike some other Euro countries.

 

[James]

Here’s an avalanche on a “ski route” in Switzerland which is sort of controlled and patrolled.

Here’s another on a very popular ski route in Verbier. Four people were killed. One or two were buried 6 meters and found much later.

I’ve skied this route at least half a dozen times, though prob not on the path they took. Not that year either as it had rained then frozen so it was terrible. I think it slid 2 weeks later. Last year did it once and there was evidence of a large slide in that same area. The “route” is quite big in that zone and has many options for paths.

There’s plenty of good off piste skiing wherever you go, but use a guide for anything you’re unsure of as everything is going to be new. The problem in Europe is a chute right next to a piste will be uncontrolled, but in NA it’s controlled. That’s what happened to the two US ski team kids killed a few years ago.

 

[Sibhusky]

Have you tried pricing different airports and driving or taking a train? The last couple years flights to Geneva during French school holiday have been very expensive. Like nearly $500 more than Paris. (Ny/Newark) I ended up going to Paris instead,(via London or Dublin), and doing a road trip to Switzerland with friends.

I started out planning to fly into Zurich and take the train to St. Anton. But then the crowd issue started being more of a factor as I perused videos of St. Anton. (You have to understand, after 17 seasons here, my ability to tolerate Camelback conditions ever again is non-existent.) So I started looking for sure snow but way less people. Which then became a shuttle ride or bus ride, upping the schlepping issue noticeably. Then looked at flying into Innsbruck. Still the shuttle or bus ride, but maybe not so bad since we'd ditch the train portion. Found a good option, then was looking at hotels. Was certainly interested in half board and easy access to the slopes. At which point it all fell apart. The daughter was opposed to the $ total with good reason and if I picked up some of that it was far more than the ski trip was worth to me. Plus, the hassle of traveling there. Looked around and said a return to Lake Louise and staying at a high end hotel there made far more sense. So, Austria isn't abandoned, but we're going for a full two weeks for less than what a one week ski trip would have been.

FWIW, I was looking outside of school holidays and later in the season as I wanted to be at "full ski ability" for the trip. I'm sure that the fact I was looking at less well crowded places meant there were fewer lodging options. And the fact that I was trying to please a former racer and current backcountry skier along with my own desire for safer terrain in the same trip made it especially tough. If I were going with another old woman it would have been simpler. And if money wasn't an issue, all things are easier.

 

[James]

Well your other option is join a ski club trip.
Took a quick look.
The two I saw to St Anton were $2,800 including airfare, 4* hotel, brkfst, dinner, transfers. Not lift tickets.
That’s from Ny, Boston. One advantage is there’s usually a range of skiing levels/desires.

Sounds like Italy might be better for crowds, cost.

 

[Ski&ride]

the fact that I was trying to please a former racer and current backcountry skier along with my own desire for safer terrain in the same trip made it especially tough.

The fact remains, European skiing is targeted at groomer zoomers. So you daughter simply need to give up on the off-piste part, especially it sounds like hiring a guide is out due to cost consideration. The former racer in her might be better served. As well as your desire to stay on safe ground.

The traveling part is a given. You can’t just magically beam yourself over to Europe, not yet anyway.

 

[jmeb]

The fact remains, European skiing is targeted at groomer zoomers.

Maybe it's targeted at it, but there are huge huge freeride scenes in many of the big Euro locals. And their levels of knowledge of mountain travel are incredible. It's one reason why so many North American freeski pros go spend time in Europe.

 

[Cheizz]

Most holiday skiers (non-locals that travel one or two weeks a year to the mountains to ski) are groomer zoomers. Many locals and ever growing numbers of non-locals wait for the good weather after a storm and do back country touring of dedicated short powder trips.
If you have to fly in from the US, that is not an option, obviously. By the knowledge that locals have on terrain is huge and many ski areas have good information services on avalanche danger (avalanche bulletins in English as well as the local language is ever more common), and every village and most ski schools offer guided off-piste trips. There are quite a few places where easy lift access off-piste (mellow too, lots of terrain below 30 degrees) that one could do without a guide, since you can spot conditions and lines from the lift. Tignes and Val d'Isère, for instance. Or Paradiski (the TGV stops at Bourg st. Maurice, at the bottom of the hill), Arosa & Lenzerheide in Switzerland (good train connection from Zurich). Above tree line (1800 meters) a white-out is a possibility. And it's nice to be able to go grommer zooming on the almost empty runs between the trees on those days.

 

[Sibhusky]

The two I saw to St Anton were $2,800 including airfare, 4* hotel, brkfst, dinner, transfers. Not lift tickets.
That’s from Ny, Boston. One advantage is there’s usually a range of skiing levels/desires.

Well, then add at least $450 to that to get to those cities from here, then add the lift tickets, $337 each. Suddenly you're up to $7200 or so. At crowded St. Anton (from my groomer perspective, possibly not from the daughter's off piste perspective.) Whereas the trip we are now planning I think will run less that for two weeks including food, rental car, entry fees, gas, airfare, trip insurance, hotel, everything.

And Lake Louise is practically local. We immediately save $3000 in airfare. That covers a suite at the Post Hotel should we want one. This was a no brainer decision. We can pick the date based on snow conditions, throw the equipment in our car and just need a hotel booking. Or, stay here, for "free". Basically, as someone said above, it's hard to justify the expense if you already live at a great ski area. We're getting the trip to Europe, just not for skiing. (My last trip to Austria, planned for three weeks except it ended up being four, had too much complication to say what it really cost, as I ended up in the hospital. But I think the net was around $8000. Maybe less. Insurance covered stuff that I might have had to shell out for, but changed destinations and airfares so much it is hard to say what it should have been. Always buy good trip insurance.)

 

[Jacob]

I started out planning to fly into Zurich and take the train to St. Anton. But then the crowd issue started being more of a factor as I perused videos of St. Anton.

FWIW, I was looking outside of school holidays and later in the season as I wanted to be at "full ski ability" for the trip.

I personally think that mid- to late-January is the best time to go to St. Anton, because you get the best combination of snow and smaller crowds. Most people are going to be back at work in that gap between New Year and the February school holidays, and the area usually gets enough snow by that time for the terrain to be fun. And even in a low snow year, you can usually find some sheltered off-piste terrain up high with some decent snow to ski on, and all of the groomers should be fine.

Here's a video I found this morning that shows pretty typical crowds for mid-January (skip to 1:45 to see the skiing).


Obviously, the skiing on show isn't great, but it does a good job of showing what the crowds are really like at that time of year both on piste and in the terrain just off to the side of the piste. Keep in mind that the snow isn't usually that deep by that time of year. This winter had some epic dumps in Austria.

Here's one from last year


Again, not good skiing, but it shows what the crowds on the groomers look like in January.

 

[Ski&ride]

We're getting the trip to Europe, just not for skiing.

You’ll have to go in spring and fall though. Air fare in summer is typically eye watering expensive. It makes ski trip look cheap! Lodging in city too can be difficult to find.

That’s why I’ve mostly gone over in the winter instead. And in order not to lose skiing in the short ski season, I brought my skis.

It had worked out quite well for me. 4-5” of fresh in between “piste” untouched for many hours. Even better, deserted piste with 3-4” late in the day, because everyone had gone to the bar (average European skiers don’t care for the ungroomed)

 

[jmeb]

@Sibhusky -- If you're not wedded to St. Anton -- and have inexpensive flights to Zurich -- I can highly recommend the Andermatt-Sedrun-Disentis complex for relatively light on crowds, incredible diversity of terrain, and inexpensive by Swiss standards. It's easy to get to from Zurich, and has a variety of ski areas as conditions dictate. There can be a few car wait for the Gemmstock tram on busy days, but most the other areas are very light on crowds. Plus being able to ski across the entire complex and take the après train back is a unique experience.

Lodging and lift tickets are good bit cheaper too -- especially if you consider staying in one of the smaller towns along ski area like Sedrun or Rueras. All the towns are connected on one train track with frequent trains that are included in the cost of your lift ticket. It's logistically easy and opens up a ton of possibilities.

A number of guiding outfits offer freeskiing group guided days. This brings the group down considerably and might allow your daughter a day of skiing something super memorable with a local guide. Example: http://www.andermatt-guides.ch/EN/sunday-funday.html

 

[James]

Well, then add at least $450 to that to get to those cities from here, then add the lift tickets, $337 each. Suddenly you're up to $7200 or so. At crowded St. Anton (from my groomer perspective, possibly not from the daughter's off piste perspective.) Whereas the trip we are now planning I think will run less that for two weeks including food, rental car, entry fees, gas, airfare, trip insurance, hotel, everything.

And Lake Louise is practically local. We immediately save $3000 in airfare. That covers a suite at the Post Hotel should we want one. This was a no brainer decision. We can pick the date based on snow conditions, throw the equipment in our car and just need a hotel booking. Or, stay here, for "free". Basically, as someone said above, it's hard to justify the expense if you already live at a great ski area. We're getting the trip to Europe, just not for skiing. (My last trip to Austria, planned for three weeks except it ended up being four, had too much complication to say what it really cost, as I ended up in the hospital. But I think the net was around $8000. Maybe less. Insurance covered stuff that I might have had to shell out for, but changed destinations and airfares so much it is hard to say what it should have been. Always buy good trip insurance.)

Makes sense.


Do you consider this ^ unacceptably crowded? (From @Jacob ’s video of St Anton)

I’ve gone only during the most crowded times to French speaking western Switzerland, during French school holiday, the last few years. I don’t find it bad at all. But I ski in VT. You just have to avoid the main lift where ski school starts at 10am, and end of day return to base when ski school and everyone else ends. One day we came down at around 5pm and there was literally no one there.

5:04 pm. This would be crowded 1- 1 1/2 hours earlier.
But, there’s always zones one has to go through that are crowded during the day. Skiing with a guide/ski school or at least some one who knows the place well makes a big difference. It seems Europeans will ski closer to each other in general, but I’ve never seen a collision.

 

[Sibhusky]

You’ll have to go in spring and fall though. Air fare in summer is typically eye watering expensive. It makes ski trip look cheap! Lodging in city too can be difficult to find.

Late May. I needed the Großglockner open and this year it didn't open until June 6-ish. We are sticking to the western half of the country to finish that interrupted trip. This is a time of year I've done repeatedly, usually without reservations, in fact. This time I am booking some locations as last time (because I'd had that hospital visit and the entire second half of the trip was reworked as I wasn't allowed to be further that 15 minutes from a regional hospital) we just walked up and asked but it took time out of the day. The only town we really had an issue was Mayrhofen because it was the weekend and some auto event was going on. But we just drove to Finkenburg and knocked on a Zimmer Frei and all was fine. This time I'm doing a mix. The only "city" we'll be hitting is Innsbruck. I'm expecting airfare to be about $200 more than winter, but don't expect to have many hotels cost over $100 a night, some may be noticeably lower. My biggest issue is going to be that a lot of these ski areas roll up the sidewalk between the end of the ski season and July. And I definitely don't want to do it in July!!

 

[Sibhusky]

Do you consider this ^ unacceptably crowded? (From @Jacob ’s video of St Anton)

That looks acceptable. But at this point it's not an issue, we've made the decision.

It seems Europeans will ski closer to each other in general, but I’ve never seen a collision.

You forget red vs. gray.

 

[Sibhusky]

I personally think that mid- to late-January is the best time to go to St. Anton, because you get the best combination of snow and smaller crowds.

Maybe, but I'm not ready for prime time here until then. Last year I was in a panic because @Fuller was arriving a week early on Jan. 13 and I still wasn't feeling it. (Day 15 for me). @LiquidFeet showed up 10 days later, I was still barely ready. If I'm going to shell out all that money then I want to be skiing my best.

I think we should return this thread to the OP, whose situation is different than mine.

 

[James]

You forget red vs. gray.

That was Europe? Maybe I've forgotten, but I thought that was the US. Well that wasn't a proximity collision. Plus I wasn't there.

I received a bunch of "people like you", non complimentary comments, for taking up the guy on the left. I think it was red.

I think the OP has left the building.

 

[Jacob]

For the OP (or anyone interested), here's a video of the red home run on the Rendl side in St Anton.


As you can see, it narrows in some places, gets a bunch of small bumps forming in some places, and goes over a steep(ish) drop that gets scraped down and a bit icy (4:00 mark in the video). And to finish off, you've got the long flat section leading to the bridge, which is covered in ice and dumps you in a crowd at the lift base.

@BobtheGoat if you think your wife can handle that run, then she should be fine on any of the blues and reds in the Arlberg area. All of the other reds and blues will be easier than that.

 

[Seldomski]

Hello,
I am thinking of skiing in Austria this January. I have skied extensively in the western US and Canada (NA) but never in Europe and I had a few questions:
1. Looking at trail maps, it seems that "reds" in Austria are even more prevalent than "blues" in NA, to the point where some areas (like skoll) only have ~5% black. Are reds substantially harder in Austria than blues in western NA?
2. Are "ski routes" like double blacks in NA, or more like general off-trail but inbounds terrain?
3. My wife is just moving on from greens--she can do some blues at Crystal in Washington. Will she be fine on blues and moving into reds out there?

For reference, I would say I'm advanced-expert. I tend to go for double-black skiing. I ski only in bounds (nowhere needing avvy gear), but frequently hike-to. I've skiied most of Crystal's and Steven's Pass' terrain in Washington, and, for example, also have hiked and skied the peak in Telluride, and am no stranger to Spanky's Ladder and the Chimney at Blackcomb. I was thinking St. Antons, or maybe Gastein or SkiWelt. We have to do Austria because if we go we want to visit Vienna. Any thoughts on those resorts, or information on my questions?

Thanks,

I went to St. Anton for 1 week this past season. We went the last week of January. I will answer as if you are skiing there... I've only been to Europe to ski one other time (Cortina).

1. Regarding rankings, blues are generally not equal to western US greens. I would say it's more like a range from a difficult green to a medium blue = St. Anton blue. US medium blue to easy black = St. Anton red. Marked blacks in St. Anton are groomed. You won't find marked bumped runs. Ski routes can develop bumps, or shortcuts from one run to another (technically off piste).
2. Routes with trail markers are sometimes groomed. The routes are avalanche controlled. If there is a rope blocking entry, it has been deemed unsafe by patrol. They are basically patrolled inbounds terrain that may or may not be groomed. If you follow the markers, you generally will not run into obstacles (i.e. unmarked rocks, tree stumps, etc). Wander to far from the markers, and all of the 'unmarked hazards' are present.
3. Depending on conditions, maybe. I'd suggest she download instead of ski down at the end of the day and stick to blues until you can scope out the easier reds for her. I haven't been to Crystal.

The ski area will groom everything every day. If there is 1 ft of powder, the groomers will flatten as much as they can, then possibly rope off the ungroomed stuff.

If you want to do hike-to terrain, glades, steeps, anything off a marked run, you really should plan on a guide. There is a lot of terrain that can be skied with lift access and limited hiking, but anything off piste is not avy controlled. They also do not mark obstacles outside the labeled ski routes. So all the things you take for granted like signs that say 'cliff' or poles marking rocks/stumps/crevasses are not present. You have to scope your line from the lift first. If you can't see the entire line, you are making a leap of faith.

Lift tickets in Europe are relatively cheap. Getting a (shared) guide + lift tickets is similar expense to US lift ticket, but the off piste is actually much better than US. Off piste in Europe is high risk, high reward skiing. The guide reduces the risk.

 

[James]

For the OP (or anyone interested), here's a video of the red home run on the Rendl side in St Anton.


As you can see, it narrows in some places, gets a bunch of small bumps forming in some places, and goes over a steep(ish) drop that gets scraped down and a bit icy (4:00 mark in the video). And to finish off, you've got the long flat section leading to the bridge, which is covered in ice and dumps you in a crowd at the lift base.

@BobtheGoat if you think your wife can handle that run, then she should be fine on any of the blues and reds in the Arlberg area. All of the other reds and blues will be easier than that.

Beginner’s Lauberhorn?

 

[Sibhusky]

For the OP (or anyone interested), here's a video of the red home run on the Rendl side in St Anton.


As you can see, it narrows in some places, gets a bunch of small bumps forming in some places, and goes over a steep(ish) drop that gets scraped down and a bit icy (4:00 mark in the video). And to finish off, you've got the long flat section leading to the bridge, which is covered in ice and dumps you in a crowd at the lift base.

@BobtheGoat if you think your wife can handle that run, then she should be fine on any of the blues and reds in the Arlberg area. All of the other reds and blues will be easier than that.

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