International (Europe/Japan/Southern Hemisphere) Austria vs North America

[BobtheGoat]

Hello,
I am thinking of skiing in Austria this January. I have skied extensively in the western US and Canada (NA) but never in Europe and I had a few questions:
1. Looking at trail maps, it seems that "reds" in Austria are even more prevalent than "blues" in NA, to the point where some areas (like skoll) only have ~5% black. Are reds substantially harder in Austria than blues in western NA?
2. Are "ski routes" like double blacks in NA, or more like general off-trail but inbounds terrain?
3. My wife is just moving on from greens--she can do some blues at Crystal in Washington. Will she be fine on blues and moving into reds out there?

For reference, I would say I'm advanced-expert. I tend to go for double-black skiing. I ski only in bounds (nowhere needing avvy gear), but frequently hike-to. I've skiied most of Crystal's and Steven's Pass' terrain in Washington, and, for example, also have hiked and skied the peak in Telluride, and am no stranger to Spanky's Ladder and the Chimney at Blackcomb. I was thinking St. Antons, or maybe Gastein or SkiWelt. We have to do Austria because if we go we want to visit Vienna. Any thoughts on those resorts, or information on my questions?

Thanks,

 

[scott43]

I've only skied Koessen, St. Johann, Kitzbuhel and Steinplatte in Austria. In my experience, these places are mostly interested in rolling groomers..our easy-medium blues. Most of the skiers there that I encountered were of somewhat lower ski level and were on vacation. They have this ski safari mentality where they just kinda cruise groomers from one hill to the next..there are many interconnected mountains and you can ski for hours from place to place.

I skied one run at Kitzbuhel called Diretissima which was a black to them and it was practically untouched by noon. It was perfectly groomed and I'd call it a regular black out west. But because it was groomed to within an inch of its life it was relatively easy to manage.

As far out of bounds, I avoided because if you get into trouble out of bounds you're on your own and I was skiing alone. You have to pay for extraction and they're not shy about flying helicopters in to get you. I have no idea what that costs. You should look into getting insurance just for extraction..I think it's fairly trivial money-wise and might be worth the investment. There is harder stuff to be had, but in general, I'd say most of the skiing there is relatively tame.

Word of advice..think carefully about where you're going. The lower elevation resorts can have bad..and I mean BAD..years. Kitzbuhel especially. So either wait to see how the year is going before booking or plan on a higher elevation resort in the western part.

 

[fatbob]

So the basics are you have to decide what you want to be doing because both your wife and you are probably going to find you need to do different things.

I've never heard of Skoll - do you mean Soll in the Skiwelt? In which case it's fairly mild hence few blacks.

Plenty of Austrian reds are groomers that would be blueblack at most in US but blues are really what you want to be targetting for your wife. Skiroutes aren't really double blacks they are just basically ungroomed runs and will either be closed or totally skied out so aren't really a means of accessing off piste quality snow without avy precautions.

From what you ski in N America you'll want to be going off piste which means joining guided groups and renting kit unless you're confident in your risk assessment skills.

You need adequate insurance because patrol will get in a heli for most evacs rather than run sleds on busy runs.

St Anton is great for you but probably terrible for your wife. Busy, not really many easy groomers, sh#tshows and pinchpoints at certain times of the day. Lech or Warth may suit her better.

I've never skied there but somewhere like the Ski Amade region may suit, plenty of groomers and different areas on one pass. Plus a bit closer to Vienna.

 

[Sibhusky]

I'd been looking at going to Obergurgl myself, due to its altitude and lack of crowds. However, my daughter wanted more challenge and ultimately the pricing just didn't work for us. We're really used to no people being on the slopes and the idea of schlepping equipment, paying $200 or more (much more) bucks a night for lodging and at most resorts contending with crowds was ultimately unattractive. So we've shelved a winter trip for an early summer trip there instead. I realized that for the 2020 season we'd started planning too late (lots of stuff was fully booked and this was a couple months back) and I wasn't sure that 1) my daughter would still be single in 2021 and 2) that I'd still be up to that strenuous a trip at the age of 70. I'm thinking I'll be graduating soon to Viking cruises.

Understand, we live in Montana. The skiing here is fantastic and the only real reason for us to hit Austria is the ambiance. We'll hit all the ski areas in summer and check them out and when she goes the next time with someone her age and with her risk tolerance, it'll work better for her. I'm happy with groomers. She would be bored on them.

As it is, she plans on mountain biking while I hit museums and shops.

 

[Cheizz]

Have a look at Obertauern. HIgh altitude (quite snow sure), lots of blue runs, easy, accessible off-piste, compact but lots of opportunities. Not the cheapest lodging wise, but exactly right for what you describe. On the right side of Austria, too. Closer to Vienna than Tyrol or the Vorarlberg regions.
On powder skiing: in Europe, off the groomers means backcountry, basically. You're on your own in terms of mitigating avalanche risk, getting help etc. That said: guided groups and off-piste courses/trips are offered by quite a few ski schools as well. Just don't go alone, get/rent the avy gear and knowledge, get some insurance that covers back country extractions.
With your wish list and overall trip plans I would go Obertauern. And I have seen about 50 resorts in the Alps (none in North America, though).

 

[fatbob]

I realized that for the 2020 season we'd started planning too late (lots of stuff was fully booked and this was a couple months back).

Sounds implausible. For 7 day Sat- Sat stays?

Some places of course fill year on year immediately but if booking in May for the following season it is likely that owners have gone on holiday and haven't got round to opening bookings up yet. Of course with the Euro model being 7 night stays weekend to weekend, owners don't tend to make inventory available for non standard requests very early because it leaves them with voids.

That said unless I was hung up on some cultural requirements or wanted to ski big mountains I'm not sure I'd travel from Whitefish to Austria to ski ( basing my choice on best chance of good snow and weighting for travel ballache and crowds). And don't get me wrong, Austria as you know is great.

 

[Cheizz]

If 'close-ish to Vienna' is what you want and you want to make sure there's good blue and other groomer skiing, try the Dolimites in Italy. THe way they prepare their runs, they're litterally the most ski-sure option in the Alps. And then there is the scenery, the food... Just not too much easy off-piste skiing (although: Alta Badia or Val Gardena just after a storm...). I'll be in that region myself Jan 25-Feb 1.

 

[Sibhusky]

Sounds implausible. For 7 day Sat- Sat stays?

Some places of course fill year on year immediately but if booking in May for the following season it is likely that owners have gone on holiday and haven't got round to opening bookings up yet. Of course with the Euro model being 7 night stays weekend to weekend, owners don't tend to make inventory available for non standard requests very early because it leaves them with voids.

That said unless I was hung up on some cultural requirements or wanted to ski big mountains I'm not sure I'd travel from Whitefish to Austria to ski ( basing my choice on best chance of good snow and weighting for travel ballache and crowds). And don't get me wrong, Austria as you know is great.

There may have been some issues with not Saturday to Saturday as I found more when I tried those the dates. But as it takes FOREVER to get from here to there and back (best case is normally 18 hours with many ticket bookings in the sub $2000 price zone being 36 hours or more!) it ends up being a lot of traveling for a week of skiing. Ultimately, like I said, the price was just f-ing ridiculous and the effort was too great. I decided it would make more sense to go back to Lake Louise or something instead of trying to ski Europe (would have been doable from the East Coast.) For our May-June trip, hotels are way more reasonable and we don't have to drag winter stuff along.

FWIW I leaned to ski in Fieberbrunn in the early 1970's. After one trip to the Rockies I decided that if you want to ski, that's where it's at. If you want to eat, then, fine, go to Europe. But I'd always wanted to go back one last time... until I saw the prices. Sure the lift tickets are cheap. But I'm used to Montana pricing and my locker.

 

[Rod9301]

Interesting. I find that skiing in Europe is a lot cheaper, particularly when compared to Tahoe or Colorado. In Tahoe it's pretty hard to find accommodations under 200 a night,

 

[BobtheGoat]

I was VERY surprised at lift ticket prices--looked liked St. Anton was ~$60-$70 /day vs $100+ in major US/Canada resorts. Hotels didn't seem too bad either.

 

[Sibhusky]

Interesting. I find that skiing in Europe is a lot cheaper, particularly when compared to Tahoe or Colorado. In Tahoe it's pretty hard to find accommodations under 200 a night,

It's all in your comparisons.

 

[jmeb]

I was VERY surprised at lift ticket prices--looked liked St. Anton was ~$60-$70 /day vs $100+ in major US/Canada resorts. Hotels didn't seem too bad either.

This was my experience. I did a 2 week trip this spring from CO to the "expensive" switzerland. I spent far far less than I would've for a similar trip in the states. A 5 day lift ticket to an area with far more terrain than anywhere in the US was $250. Lodging with half board I found for <$100/night. If you're open to areas outside of Austria -- I had an amazing experience with a spot in Switzerland I'm always happy to share. Small hotel, great food, awesome skiing.

Regarding off-piste terrain like the US -- as many other have mentioned it doesn't exist in the same way. However 2 areas I skied had a marked and avalanched controlled route that wasn't groomed. They are just far less common.

If you have the avalanche expertise to ski off-piste in Europe -- the amount of terrain accessible from lifts is simply mind boggling. Despite all the US's belief in "freedom" and "individuality" and "self-responsibility" -- European ski areas embrace those ideals much more.

 

[KingGrump]

Despite all the US's belief in ... and "self-responsibility"

It is definitely an American ideal. Seldom practiced though. Ask the lawyers

 

[Ski&ride]

paying $200 or more (much more) bucks a night for lodging

It doesn’t have to be THAT expensive!

I don’t think I ever pay more than $100/night for room alone. Often times I managed for that amount including breakfast AND dinner (“half board”)! That said, you don’t happen to be trying one of the European school holiday weeks, do you? That would be a very different story.

Agree on the rest though (the long flight, schlepping of gears, lack of challenging ungroomed runs etc. ). A few resorts have some limited “free ride” zones or handful ungroomed “itinerary”. But not enough for a hard charging skier used to North America skiing.

 

[Cheizz]

You can rent ski's. It saves you some money and fuzz in flights. And if you look up the rental shops beforehand, you can make shore they have the ski you want. All shops have allmountain and freeride gear as well. Maybe they don't name their collection online, but a simple email will get you info on what they have.

 

[fatbob]

All shops have allmountain and freeride gear as well.

Hmm part true IMV. Rental shops tend to stock what most rental customers want or need, middle of the road piste skis. Generally only one or 2 shops will have a good selection in higher end demos and it can be a ballache to find them. Even in St Anton I once had to walk the length of town to find a proper powder ski when my luggage was delayed.

If you want something specific or are at the extremes of the ski length spectrum you can struggle.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,
I am thinking of skiing in Austria this January. I have skied extensively in the western US and Canada (NA) but never in Europe and I had a few questions:
1. Looking at trail maps, it seems that "reds" in Austria are even more prevalent than "blues" in NA, to the point where some areas (like skoll) only have ~5% black. Are reds substantially harder in Austria than blues in western NA?
2. Are "ski routes" like double blacks in NA, or more like general off-trail but inbounds terrain?
3. My wife is just moving on from greens--she can do some blues at Crystal in Washington. Will she be fine on blues and moving into reds out there?

For reference, I would say I'm advanced-expert. I tend to go for double-black skiing. I ski only in bounds (nowhere needing avvy gear), but frequently hike-to. I've skiied most of Crystal's and Steven's Pass' terrain in Washington, and, for example, also have hiked and skied the peak in Telluride, and am no stranger to Spanky's Ladder and the Chimney at Blackcomb. I was thinking St. Antons, or maybe Gastein or SkiWelt. We have to do Austria because if we go we want to visit Vienna. Any thoughts on those resorts, or information on my questions?

Thanks,

I’ m going to buck the trend a bit and say that, if you’re going mid- to late-January, then you might want to look at low(ish) resorts with a base area between 1000 and 1500 m. I’ve had quite a few snowy days in western Austria in January, and when you’re above tree line, which is around 2000 m in that area, the visibility can be pretty bad.

So what you really want is an area with a good amount of terrain below tree line in case it snows and a good amount above tree line in case it’s a lean year.

In St. Anton, the reds tend to be pretty solid intermediate terrain, though always groomed. But, they will sometimes have short sections that are much steeper than you’d expect from a piste with that designation. For example, the red home run on the Rendl side feels like a standard red most of the way down. But, there are a couple of short sections that are as steep as you’ll find on a black, with bumps formed from the scrapings left over from loads of people following the same lines as each other.

The blues also have a few unexpected steep sections. But even worse for beginners, there are a few with flat sections that you want to carry a lot of speed over. For example, the blue coming back from Stuben to St. Anton has a long flat following a long, straight incline. If you don’t straight-line most of it, then you’ll end up poling/skating a long way.

 

[James]

It's all in your comparisons.

Have you tried pricing different airports and driving or taking a train? The last couple years flights to Geneva during French school holiday have been very expensive. Like nearly $500 more than Paris. (Ny/Newark) I ended up going to Paris instead,(via London or Dublin), and doing a road trip to Switzerland with friends.

 

[BobtheGoat]

Regarding off-piste terrain like the US -- as many other have mentioned it doesn't exist in the same way. However 2 areas I skied had a marked and avalanched controlled route that wasn't groomed. They are just far less common.

Good info. I don't go outside patrolled/avalanche controlled, but do most of my skiing off groomers (bowls, steeps, glades). It sounds like I shouldn't expect much of this sort of terrain in Europe.

 

[James]

Good info. I don't go outside patrolled/avalanche controlled, but do most of my skiing off groomers (bowls, steeps, glades). It sounds like I shouldn't expect much of this sort of terrain in Europe.

There’s tons of that terrain, it’s just essentially backcountry.
You need to understand that outside the piste marker is off piste and uncontrolled. That means 1m outside you’re now off piste. (Don’t know if there’s a legal border. Assume 1 inch outside the markers os off piste)
The good news is everyone uses guides so it’s extremely common. You’ll still need beacon/shovel/probe. Airbags are very common in Europe too.
Also realize that even on piste patrol rescue you pay for. Not like here. So get the insurance with the lift ticket. (Not just “ticket insurance”)
Off piste rescue is a gray area, likely it requires separate insurance.

They use heli’s almost like snowmobiles here due to the long distances, having to take multiple lifts to get you out sometimes etc. Hell they’ll use heli’s for chair/gondola lift evac.

Learn the difference where you’re going between the left and right piste markers. Usually the top is different. White outs are common with fog/clouds/snow. It’s really easy to not know which side of the trail you’re on.