At what speed does waxing matter?

[SpauldingSmails]

Not even going to touch this. Go figure!

Why not? I love your tuning videos and I trust your opinion. I'd like to hear it. I'm new to learning these things and I will ask the most fundamental questions so I can learn from the bottom up.

 

[Jacques]

That's my other confounding variable - base structure. Why I asked this question is because I sanded my bases with 220 grit sandpaper (needed some flattening and prettying up) and waxed with CH8, as always. Also, the sanding was an experiment to see what happens when I change structure. From what I read on the all knowing internet, 220 grit didn't seem too fine for cold, dry snow. Then I went skiing at Solitude yesterday. It was cold, mid mountain air temp at opening was 19 degrees. The skis felt slower, stickier, sloggier than usual - in all of those spots mentioned... lift line, flats, traverses but also felt like they weren't taking off as fast on pitch. But just about every time I've been skiing this year the air temp has been in the high 20s to low 40s. So I'm trying to understand how all of the variables work together. I ordered some CH6 to see how the skis feel if I get to ski in colder temps again.

Best to never sandpaper bases.

 

[cantunamunch]

Your sandpaper structure is too new and hairy to accelerate well. You are not even feeling the wax except on the very first run.

You can either ski the sandpaper structure in (takes days) or accelerate the smoothing by polishing with Fibertex pads. If you do repeated hot scrape then Fibertex cycles (instead of brushing), it's about the quickest (least skiing) way to get back to a reasonably quick base.

Day air temp is not as useful a data point as the combination of the air temp when the snow actually fell (and how long it's been aging). So if you have fresh snow that fell at 5-10F but then the day got up to 40F, it will behave like 10F snow with a bit of free moisture, not like 31F snow. If you have 2-3 day old snow then go closer to the day temp with your wax.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Best to never sandpaper bases.

Great! Why not? It's ok to scrape with a steel scraper to take off material or grind with stone to remove material and add structure, but why not sandpaper?

PS I'm doing this experimenting on old skis.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Your sandpaper structure is too new and hairy to accelerate well. You are not even feeling the wax except on the very first run.

You can either ski the sandpaper structure in (takes days) or accelerate the smoothing by polishing with Fibertex pads. If you do repeated hot scrape then Fibertex cycles (instead of brushing), it's about the quickest (least skiing) way to get back to a reasonably quick base.

Day air temp is not as useful a data point as the combination of the air temp when the snow actually fell (and how long it's been aging). So if you have fresh snow that fell at 5-10F but then the day got up to 40F, it will behave like 10F snow with a bit of free moisture, not like 31F snow. If you have 2-3 day old snow then go closer to the day temp with your wax.

That is an awesome answer. Thank you! I'll have to start paying attention to temps during and after storms.

I used scotch brite to get the hairs off, but single digit number of passes. Then I hot scraped maybe twice. I didn't consider trying it in cycles or taking more passes.

 

[NE1]

Great! Why not? It's ok to scrape with a steel scraper to take off material or grind with stone to remove material and add structure, but why not sandpaper?

Leaves a lot more micro-hairs (which then need to be removed with sharp steel scraper and/or Fibertex). Stone grind is infinitely better than sanding.

I shudder to ask if you sanded with strokes from shovel to tail only or strokes in both directions?

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Leaves a lot more micro-hairs (which then need to be removed with sharp steel scraper and/or Fibertex). Stone grind is infinitely better than sanding.

I shudder to ask if you sanded with strokes from shovel to tail only or strokes in both directions?

HA! I shudder to tell you that I only sanded from tip to tail.
Good info. That makes sense about the hairs and cleaning. I'm not grinding because there is very little base left and I just wanted to touch it up. This is the end of this pair's life.

 

[Jacques]

Great! Why not? It's ok to scrape with a steel scraper to take off material or grind with stone to remove material and add structure, but why not sandpaper?

PS I'm doing this experimenting on old skis.

Scrape with sharp steel scraper. Sandpaper ='s hairy base. Then use a coarse fiber pad. Brush and wax like crazy.

 

[Jacques]

HA! I shudder to tell you that I only sanded from tip to tail.
Good info. That makes sense about the hairs and cleaning. I'm not grinding because there is very little base left and I just wanted to touch it up. This is the end of this pair's life.

Check this video out.

 

[martyg]

Nope. Not a stretch. Absolute truth. A never-ever will notice the difference between a ski with low breakaway speed and a ski with high breakaway speed.

The never-ever will think that the ski with low breakaway speed is bad. They will not be able to step forward. They will backslide on little humps. They will overshoot the lift loading area. They will hate the skis. But they WILL notice.

The never-ever will also (eventually) appreciate a good wax job more because they slow down to a crawl as they shop for turns.



Anyone standing still and shuffling their feet forward-back can tell a wax job with low breakaway* speed.

*Not my term - official TOKO wax manual term for the speed at which a ski escapes static friction and goes into dynamic friction.

It's important we use official terms now that we're officially spansered.

You do have a point - once the ski is in dynamic friction, few people can tell a good wax job - and this was my point above wrt. racing and maximum speed.

Once the ski is in dynamic friction, less than half the posters to this forum can tell a fast wax from a slow wax without timing or a pace skier. Maybe. I doubt there's even that many. Terrain, snow quality, line, ski flex and damping, structure (as @Chenzo points out) are all so much bigger factors that anyone who thinks they can is probably fooling themselves.

Good info here.

I will add that a ski that is tuned to maximize effficiencies for a given snow condition / temp will perform very consistently. That consistency builds confidence with beginning skiers. With more advanced skiers, it just enables them to expend less energy.

My wife, for example, never says to me, “My tune is so spot on.” However when her tune is spot on she tends to have very enjoyable days, at slow speeds, which makes my day even more enjoyable.

 

[Uncle-A]

Good info here.

I will add that a ski that is tuned to maximize effficiencies for a given snow condition / temp will perform very consistently. That consistency builds confidence with beginning skiers. With more advanced skiers, it just enables them to expend less energy.

My wife, for example, never says to me, “My tune is so spot on.” However when her tune is spot on she tends to have very enjoyable days, at slow speeds, which makes my day even more enjoyable.

Are you mixing up a good tune with wax for different temperature? I agree that a good tune adds confidence, but that may be more about sharp edges and being able to stop that a novice skier fears when skiing.

 

[slowrider]

Not even going to touch this. Go figure!

Bahaha

 

[Doug Briggs]

...

3) You can't sense a good maximum speed wax job by the seat of your pants at all - timing tells the story. The consequence of this rule also means no one without race experience or timing data has any first hand knowledge about speed waxes. At all.

...

If you get it bad enough or not right enough, you can tell. There is nothing worse for your game than feeling your skis drag in a downhill race. Don't ask me how I know.

Ok, losing a pole in the start is maybe worse. Or a ski. Although in Rocky Mountain Masters racing, if you drop a shoe before the first gate, you get a do-over without a penalty. Weird rule, but real.

 

[Bendu]

ANY

 

[Jacques]

A sharp edge should be part of the wax/ glide effectiveness.

Not just sharp, but polished.

 

[Jacques]

Why not? I love your tuning videos and I trust your opinion. I'd like to hear it. I'm new to learning these things and I will ask the most fundamental questions so I can learn from the bottom up.

Stick with one wax brand's system. Preferably one of the top brands.
After years of experience you will learn.
When in doubt, wax harder.
Yes, structure has a lot to say, but good waxing does too.

 

[Philpug]

ANY

EVERY (FIFY)

 

[Dwight]

Single digits last night. hmm 3-4 day old wax job on skis. Glad I didn't have a toboggan to haul last night. New/correct wax goes on today for tonight's single digit fun.

 

[Uncle-A]

I am sitting in the slope side pub at Blue Mountain for lunch and just had an interesting run one side of the mountain my wax seemed just fine and when I came to this side it was as the the wax was brand new first day out very slick. Now the temperature is the same on both sides but I could feel like a total different wax job and not sure what happened. Any thoughts?

 

[crgildart]

I am sitting in the slope side pub at Blue Mountain for lunch and just had an interesting run one side of the mountain my wax seemed just fine and when I came to this side it was as the the wax was brand new first day out very slick. Now the temperature is the same on both sides but I could feel like a total different wax job and not sure what happened. Any thoughts?

Was one side mostly natural and the other side mostly manmande snow?