AT Frame Binding?

[coskigirl]

I think that's the right term.

Anyhow, I have a pretty new pair of skis waiting for me in Steamboat that I'd like to set up to be able to do some light touring on. By that I mean skin up at a resort before opening or on days that snow isn't great but I want to be outside and perhaps an easy hut trip here an there. Nothing major so I'm leaning toward returning the touring pads I bought for my Salomon QST Pro 110 boots and just going with an at frame binding so that I can use them without having to switch out my soles. I mean, I would hate to have a pair of Stockli Stormriders 100s that sit and get used just a few times a year.

Anyhow, now I'm trying to decide on a binding. My DIN is 8.5 (BSL is 285) so the Marker Tour F10 is probably out but I could do the F12. I have a possible line on a pair of Salomon Guardian 16s at a local shop for $250 but I'm not sure of the size so I need to pop in to the shop and with my boot to check. I think they're too big though which is too bad because I think they'd look great with the ski. Other options are the Atomic Tracker MNC, Salomon Guardian, Marker Baron, Tyrolia AAAmbition, Tyrolia AAAdrenilin and Marker Duke (although I think those would be major overkill).

Anyone with strong opinions (ha!) either way on any of these? I feel like I'm kinda playing an eenie meenie minie moe game.

 

[Monique]

I do not have extensive experience. I like how my Fritschi Eagle 12s operate - I don't have to take them off to switch from touring to skiing and back, and the lifts are pretty easy, too. They are definitely heavy. I don't think I could handle touring with an alpine boot. You are made of sterner stuff!

But there's a lot more on the market now than when I bought mine!

FWIW, you can demo skis with Dynafit bindings and boots from Mountain Outfitters in Breck. I'm sure Bent Gate in Golden does, too.

 

[coskigirl]

I do not have extensive experience. I like how my Fritschi Eagle 12s operate - I don't have to take them off to switch from touring to skiing and back, and the lifts are pretty easy, too. They are definitely heavy. I don't think I could handle touring with an alpine boot. You are made of sterner stuff!

But there's a lot more on the market now than when I bought mine!

FWIW, you can demo skis with Dynafit bindings and boots from Mountain Outfitters in Breck. I'm sure Bent Gate in Golden does, too.

Right now I'm not looking to do a full AT set up with separate boots for many reasons. Time being the biggest reason. My boots are insanely lightweight and the difference in binding weights is less than what my own body weight can swing in a few days. I have to do a lot more work on the engine before I worry too much about the equipment weight and I expect that when I do tour inbounds I'll be looking at it as much for a good strength workout as I will for the skiing aspect.

 

[jmeb]

Less weight is only one of the reasons Dynafit/tech setups are superior for touring. Far more important is a) how much weight you lift each step (frame binding you lift the weight, dynafit doesn't) and b) pivot point efficiency (frame binding your pivot point is well in front of your foot which makes every stride shorter/less efficient).

But, its still a big plunge to go Dynafit until you are ready for a tour only setup.

You don't mention your size/weight/aggressiveness of skiing. When picking a frame binding I would choose the lightest one that meets those demands. If you're <175# and aren't hucking cliffs than I think the FT series, AAAmbition, or Atomic/Salomon Guardian 13 is the way to go. (The Guardian 16 is a beast of a binding.)

I've spent time on the following: FT12, Barons, AAAdrenaline (big brother to AAAmbition), and Guardian 16s. My thoughts are as follows (most are probably able to be extrapolated to their smaller sibling bindings which typically share similar designs but are built with lighter weight materials)

FT12/Baron: Okay skiing bindings, but stack height is noticeable. Must take boot out to switch between modes. Risers easy to operate with pole.
AAAdrenaline: Ski better than FT12/Baron, but still have pretty high stack height. Can switch modes w/o removing boots. Risers are slightly fiddly.
Guardian: Best skiing of the bunch, feels like a regular Solly clamp. Switch without removing, risers similar to AAAdrenaline.

The taking boot out for switching modes is a big deal to some and less to others. If you're doing lots of laps and are flexible enough to remove skins without taking off your skis then it is an advantage to leave the boots in. If you're only doing a lap or two and aren't concerned with time then its sort of a moot point.

 

[Monique]

One thing about choosing frame bindings to avoid the cost of an additional pair of boots: Frame bindings are more expensive than alpine bindings, and tech bindings are too. So you would ultimately end up paying for two expensive pairs of AT bindings.

That being said, as much difficulty as I've had finding comfy AT boots, maybe @coskigirl is on to something ...

 

[Muleski]

Two women in my family, very good skiers have skis set up with the Guardian 13. They use them EXACTLY as you describe. With Alpine boots, or boots with a DH bias. In bounds.

Pretty bullet proof, really solid downhill {which was of real interest to them}, easy to switch. They would buy again. And they tend to be used for a sunrise or sunset resort run.

Now since getting into it, one has moved on to a tech set up for more serious and longer touring...but still keeps the guardian setup in her office for that quick uphill tour, on the spur of the moment. If one of her buddies wants to head out.

Our son has a pair of skis with the Guardian16's. They weigh a ton. He normally tours in a tech setup. He also pays for not much ,which is key. But the Solly is really reliable and skis exceptionally well downhill. He jokes that he is built for the downhill,and so are the bindings.

Not as solid as a "real" high end alpine binding, in my experience, but pretty close. And some of that might be in my head.

I guess "my people" would encourage you to look hard at the Guardian 13 and pass up the 16.

Sounds like fun!

 

[coskigirl]

Sorry for not adding stats, I've skied with so many people on here I just didn't think about adding them. I am over 175#, fairly aggressive skier. Hence the 8.5 DIN.

I'm aware that there are other benefits to a true AT setup but right now it just doesn't make sense for me. I've thought about this long and hard and considered weight, cost, time available to devote to backcountry skiing over the next 5 years, how I'll use the ski primarily, desire to go through another boot fitting process right now, space available to store more gear. The choice I need to make is either a traditional alpine binding and at frame binding. If I chose a pure AT set up they would get very little use and I'm not okay with that.

Sounds like I should definitely make the effort to find out if that binding at my local shop is the right size.

 

[neonorchid]

^ you need the size Small / 100mm brake in a Guardian.

This one will make your head spin, but would look d@rn good those SR 100's - https://www.backcountry.com/tyrolia...1cmluZyBCaW5kaW5nczoxOjE4OmJjc0NhdDUxMTAwMDQw

 

[coskigirl]

Yep, I know what size I need, I just don't know what size the 1 pair that he has is. Convoluted story but he ended up doing a trade with another customer of his for these unused bindings. When I was looking at them this weekend when I got my skis tuned he had multiple people in the store so we didn't have time figure out what size they were. His true expertise is in tuning not selling gear. Although he is a demo center for both Elan and White Dot skis. I still need to look into those.

No, I am not spending $800 on a pair of bindings! That's f*ing insane! I can buy both the AT binding and a binding to replace the demos on my Backlands for way less than that.

 

[Monique]

No, I am not spending $800 on a pair of bindings! That's f*ing insane! I can buy both the AT binding and a binding to replace the demos on my Backlands for way less than that.

But ... but ... it's on sale! You can make it up in volume ... buy 2 of them?

 

[Lauren]

b) pivot point efficiency (frame binding your pivot point is well in front of your foot which makes every stride shorter/less efficient).

This may be true on some frame bindings, definitely not on the Tyrolia AAAmbition. The pivot point is basically in the same location as a pin binding.

I've had an AAAmbition for about 3 years now...although last year they got exactly zero days of touring due to east coast conditions. But overall I've used them similar to how OP describes, light touring, early mornings on resort, or days that my pass is blacked out. I'd be lying if I said I immediately fell head over heels for them, but overall they've gotten the job done. I think the main reason I haven't fallen in love is due to a mount point/ramp delta/boot angle combination...not necessarily anything specific to the binding. The stand height took a bit to adjust to if you're not used to a frame binding, but nothing that you can't overcome (plus they're one of the frame bindings with the lowest height). The risers took a bit of learning of how to adjust on the fly...but once you learn how to use your poles to adjust...super easy.

 

[Yo Momma]

Unless you're regularly doing "Hut to Hut" or something crazy like that ........keep it simple ......... I have Guardians and Tour F12's......... Guardian's waaay too heavy unless you're on steriods! ........ Tour F12's are relatively light and perfect for anything other than "VERY SERIOUS" B/C. Also the benefit of fitting both my WTR and Alpine boots and they ski like a normal binding at the resort......... Others say they don't............ I really haven't noticed any difference. For us mere mortals our lungs will give out waaaay before we notice the diff in true touring vs frame bindings.............then again know plenty of purists who have been lapped by "Framers" who were just in better shape............

Also are the Guardians still breaking?????........... I've read extensive past reports on weak rails......... so much so that I'm not sure if I really trust them in anything other than resort climbing..........

..... and check bec Tour F12's come in Lg and small sizes depending on your BSL.

 

[ARL67]

FYI:
Though not frame-binding related, Blister did an AT binding shootout last year:

http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/blisters-at-binding-shootout

 

[Primoz]

While I agree Dynafit is super nice for touring, I still somehow can't decide to go with it. First, frame bindings allow me to use my race boots for days, when I go lift assisted riding. No matter what someone might say, I feel much more comfortable skiing (even in deep powder) with my super stiff race boots, then with touring boots. Next, I honestly have serious lack of trust in ability of Dynafit (or any other tech bindings) to work properly as binding, and to release when needed or to stay attached when needed even more. With so much time spent on ice and race skis, I ski quite aggressively also in powder, and those few little pins just don't give me much trust. I know I'm probably way off with this, but I can't help it... it's just in my head
So I'm staying with frame bindings also in future. Yes they are super heavy (especially Marker Duke which I'm using), but let's say I'm in pretty good shape, so I don't have problems getting all those climbs up, and if I'm a bit slower then guys with whole setup, including backpack and helmet, weighting less then my single ski without binding, are faster up on hill then me, it's all fine for me. I quit racing years ago, so being on top 5min later doesn't matter for me.
But there's one thing I seriously don't like with Marker. At least with Duke, but I heard also others are similar. It's so damn hard to clip in. On flat hard snow it's no big deal, on 50 degree face, and some soft snow on top, it's sometimes quite challenging thing to do. I have no idea how Salomon/Atomic or Tyrolia would do in such cases, but Marker is definitely on worse side. My Rossi DIN18 race bindings set quite a bit higher then Duke's are piece of cake to step in compared to Duke... even with AT boots which needs to be smashed into the binding
On the other side, I got Dynafit for my wife. With her 50kg weight, it actually matters if bindings weight 2.6kg or 0.5kg. She's much happier with them, then before with Marker Tour, and now I have problems keeping up with her

 

[Yo Momma]

But there's one thing I seriously don't like with Marker. At least with Duke, but I heard also others are similar. It's so damn hard to clip in. On flat hard snow it's no big deal, on 50 degree face, and some soft snow on top, it's sometimes quite challenging thing to do.

I almost always back off the fwd pressure by a couple of clicks w/ Markers. The shops generally set them too tight. Has solved that problem 100% of the time for me and GF (Girlfriend)......and never had an issue w/ releasing or pre-release on more sets than I can count....then again never had Dukes........... Tour F12's work flawless and zero issues so far in all kinds of conditions, other than some minor adjusting to the height (similar to race plates) and they sometimes creak when flexing during a turn but never any functional issues .....yet....Verdict is out on whether the "Creaking" will persist or is indicative of some other issue that will creep up w/ time......... Good luck!

 

[neonorchid]

FWIW, Never used a frame binding so take with a grain of salt but I looked at the Solomon Guardian when it first hit the market and saw allot of lateral side to side play (slop) in the heel. Given the play plus weight of lifting the thing with every step and the deck height, delta and also their further forward of the toe pivot point (something I absolutely notice when shortened in going down a size in my nordic boots), I don't know how much I'd want to use them when we have the Fritchi Vipec and Trab TR2 pin binding options. Although I think the frame binding is supposed to be a safer binding for lift serve alpine, so again However I think if I lived in CO and had Salomon QST Pro 110 boots/swappable soles I would get a Fritchi Vipec 12 for the SR 100 and move to WTR alpine binding's on the non-touring skis to minimize the need for sole swaps if sole swapping were to become an issue.

Anyway, good luck with whatever you chose for the SR100's, and kudos for getting into some uphill'ing, it's a great workout with the awesome reward of the descent color me green with envy!

 

[coskigirl]

So I really didn't mean to be that person who asks advice then doesn't take any of it. I swear! But when my local shop in Steamboat offered me their last pair of Marker Dukes for $297 and offered to get them mounted up same day I jumped on it. Better pics in the daylight tomorrow.

 

[Monique]

You can drive yourself nuts with these decisions. Better to be done with that part, and just ski!

 

[Ron]

this has been a great thread and I was skiing with @coskigirl yesterday and we discussed. I have very similar needs since the Am BAse to Thunderhead tour has become quite the social event here I was going to go full-on tech but it really seems like a good idea to just go framed and put on a ski I use already. I stumbled upon a crazy deal, last season Adrenalines in ugly green (which I like for 196.00 shipped... I ordered them up and I think I'll put them on my Renoun 98's which are my powder skis anyway so it might be a great short skin powder rig.

 

[Jerez]

Be really careful that you have someone who is well versed and experienced in mounting these bindings. (see my Sad Saga...)

I have the Tyrolia AAmbition bindings and liked them, especially because they worked very well as DH bindings, so I could just use my everyday skis when touring. Now that I have done some more uphill oriented touring this year, and have new alpine pow skis, if I had to do it over, I would choose a tech setup. I have Scarpa boots which have both alpine and tech soles. I'd get WTR bindings on my alpine skis and tech bindings on my touring skis and go with the tech soles on my boots. Change the skis; keep the boots. YMMV.