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Most tours in New England (unless you are trying to get to Katahdin) are almost all uphill so ROM seems to be less important IMO.
PJ is the man.
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Gear AT Boot shopping
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Cuff rotation is helpful for the uphill in terms of skinning efficiently
https://www.backcountry.com/explore/flowing-uphill-tips-for-efficient-skinning
(See the “Stride & Glide”)
Thread Starter
TS
Sounds like there are some people here familar with PJ. Anyone have experience with his boot pricing? I have only gone to see him once and I wound up buying new liners from him. He refused to let me try on any boots unless I was going to buy them. It was a little odd to me. He didn't have any prices on any of his display boots. He quoted me a price on a new pair of Lange RS130 boots. The price was between list and a deep discount. It seemed pretty reasonable for a popular boot in the early part of winter. I didn't find out if he prices all his boots simarly or whether he typically charges list price for his boots. Reply or PM me if you have experience with how he prices his products. I plan to call him again, although he prefers texting, which I don't. This may seem trivial, but its about a four hour drive for me, so I don't want to make the drive unless I know I can get a boot at a reasonable price. To me reasonable is between list and a deep discount.
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For a first-time AT boot buyer as the OP stated he was, I would always recommend focusing on the down over the up. Many folks try it and don't really like it. To get forward ROM, I just unbuckle or loosen the cuff buckles. I have found that rearward ROM is only important on the flats. If the OP gets proficient and wants to transition away from a mix of lift-served and move toward all-backcountry, he can then think about a tour-focused boot.
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I haven't bought boots from him because he doesn't carry Scarpa and that's what fits my feet but I have found his pricing on services to be very competitive. Like all artists, he can be a little quirky but I'd be shocked if you didn't walk out of there with a great deal that fits you perfectly. I know lots of people that drive up from MA because they don't trust anyone else to do their boots.
Thread Starter
TS
From my limited experience with PJ he seems like a great boot fitter, but a slick salesman who can talk a chicken off the bone, he is not. Probably best that way.
PJ is the man if you need boots that fit. If you want some “warm and fuzzy” to go with it... well, the Vermont teddy bear factory is close by.
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I think whether it's your first pair or fiftieth, everyone wants a pair that works for them and they get a lot of use out of. If weight it part of the equation (even secondary to downhill performance), cuff rotation sits right with it. By no means suggesting a skimo noodle, and there are a few models tossed out that that do both fairly well (like the Hawx). OP mentioned that he had a pair of downhillers.
Thread Starter
TS
My local shop ordered the AT boots for me and I got to try on 2 of 3 pairs. The three boots are:
Tecnica Zero G Tour Pro 130
Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 130
Salomon Slab Mtn 120
I have long, narrow feet that are easy to fit it the boot is narrow enough for its length. I did a shell fit on both boots (28.5) and there was less than 1 finger. I plan to go up one shell size for purchase. I don't need or want (I think) a "race" fit in this type of boot. Toes were crunched in both boots.
The Tecnica'a won't be in for another month or more, but the other two were in the shop. I spent some time with both on my feet, even had one on each foot. Both flelt like the same stiffness, even though the Salomon is rated 120. This seems to be the feedback from most reviewers. The Slab was harder to get into than the XTD, which might seem counter intuitive. The Slab lower shell is not split, so you can't spread it as wide and that pinches your foot on entry, once in, no issue. The XTD is a little lighter, 100g's, but you don't really notice it in the shop, maybe on the hill? When flexing forward, both felt nice and stiff, close to an alpine boot in resistance, but not as beefy or solid feelilng. Pretty much as expected. I don't see a problem sking downhill with either boot on groomers. The Slab was more comfortable in general and felt a lot better to me on forward flex. The front/tongue of the boot distributed shin force nicely and when I hit the "wall" of flex, it was a little forgiving. The XTD gave me some shin bite and when I hit its "wall" in forward flex, it was not forgiving. The XTD had noticeably less room in the toes, but otherwise both were on the narrow side which works for my foot. I did play with the 4 buckles on the XTD and that did reduce the shin bite, it might just take a little adjusting to even out the shin pressure. The Slab had the better cuff strap, so that was probably a factor in shin feel.
Range of motion was less in the Slab in forward flex. The Slab has a front mini tongue and that becomes a stop on forward flex. When you hit it, thats about it for flex. It is not quite like hitting a wall, but close. The XTD didn't have that feel, it flexed about 10 deg more and then slowly began to resist. I physically didn't need more flex than the XTD would give. The Slab didn't go quite as far as I was able to go. Both were very friction free to me and easy to flex. Both had more rearward flex than I could use in the store anyway.
The one caveat is I ordered one size down from my foot size and both boots were too short and too tight in the toes. The shop person told me he sees people downsize for downhill boots, but not in these AT style boots. When I told him I ski a 29.5 downhill boot which I feel is one size too big, he said I will need to stay in that size for the AT boots. Both boots were a 28.5, so my toes were crunched and I had to overlook that in the fit.
The Slab has a touring sole and the XTD has a WTR sole. Both have pin inserts, obviously. I like the idea of WTR for binding compatibility. I want these boots to fit into the Tyrolia AAtack 13 bindings I have on my Liberty Origin 96 skis. I use them in the woods a lot and I like the idea of having light weight boots to use as well. I maybe wrong about that, but I will give it a try if possible. We did a test fit in the shop and it looks like neither sole will work with that binding. Both boots went in, but were jammed in the front under the AFD and probably won't release propperly . I do have skis with Salomon STH2 WTR bindings, so they may work for the XTD. I will flush that out. I also like the idea of unlocking the boots when I coach my Race team. I am standing on the course a lot in ski boots and my race Lange's get uncomfortable after a while. I doubt either sole will fit in my race ski bindings, there's no hope there.
Now the hard part, I have to make a decision and factor in price. I actually liked the Slab the best due to fit comfort and feel of flex. It has the more cushy liner. (Neither liners are as cushy as a downhill boot) I like the WTR sole of the XTD and in general its pretty similar to the Slab overall. It has greater forward ROM too. The shop will give me a small discount since I am buying the shift bindings from them. Both boots are 2019 models and both are the same $700 price with the discount. My hesitation is the Slab's are on sale online (last years model) for around $550, so a decent savings there. The $700 for the XTD's is a reasonable price, as they are not discounted much on line. I plan to buy from this shop since they have been working with me. My preference is the Slab at the $550 price, but the shop won't price match since its last years model, not this years. This years Slab is around $700 online, so really the shop is being fair and consistent with the market.
This is long winded, but I thought I might "share" for others going through the process and give some feedback on both boots. Any advise on the three boots or my approach is always appreciated.
Tecnica Zero G Tour Pro 130
Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 130
Salomon Slab Mtn 120
I have long, narrow feet that are easy to fit it the boot is narrow enough for its length. I did a shell fit on both boots (28.5) and there was less than 1 finger. I plan to go up one shell size for purchase. I don't need or want (I think) a "race" fit in this type of boot. Toes were crunched in both boots.
The Tecnica'a won't be in for another month or more, but the other two were in the shop. I spent some time with both on my feet, even had one on each foot. Both flelt like the same stiffness, even though the Salomon is rated 120. This seems to be the feedback from most reviewers. The Slab was harder to get into than the XTD, which might seem counter intuitive. The Slab lower shell is not split, so you can't spread it as wide and that pinches your foot on entry, once in, no issue. The XTD is a little lighter, 100g's, but you don't really notice it in the shop, maybe on the hill? When flexing forward, both felt nice and stiff, close to an alpine boot in resistance, but not as beefy or solid feelilng. Pretty much as expected. I don't see a problem sking downhill with either boot on groomers. The Slab was more comfortable in general and felt a lot better to me on forward flex. The front/tongue of the boot distributed shin force nicely and when I hit the "wall" of flex, it was a little forgiving. The XTD gave me some shin bite and when I hit its "wall" in forward flex, it was not forgiving. The XTD had noticeably less room in the toes, but otherwise both were on the narrow side which works for my foot. I did play with the 4 buckles on the XTD and that did reduce the shin bite, it might just take a little adjusting to even out the shin pressure. The Slab had the better cuff strap, so that was probably a factor in shin feel.
Range of motion was less in the Slab in forward flex. The Slab has a front mini tongue and that becomes a stop on forward flex. When you hit it, thats about it for flex. It is not quite like hitting a wall, but close. The XTD didn't have that feel, it flexed about 10 deg more and then slowly began to resist. I physically didn't need more flex than the XTD would give. The Slab didn't go quite as far as I was able to go. Both were very friction free to me and easy to flex. Both had more rearward flex than I could use in the store anyway.
The one caveat is I ordered one size down from my foot size and both boots were too short and too tight in the toes. The shop person told me he sees people downsize for downhill boots, but not in these AT style boots. When I told him I ski a 29.5 downhill boot which I feel is one size too big, he said I will need to stay in that size for the AT boots. Both boots were a 28.5, so my toes were crunched and I had to overlook that in the fit.
The Slab has a touring sole and the XTD has a WTR sole. Both have pin inserts, obviously. I like the idea of WTR for binding compatibility. I want these boots to fit into the Tyrolia AAtack 13 bindings I have on my Liberty Origin 96 skis. I use them in the woods a lot and I like the idea of having light weight boots to use as well. I maybe wrong about that, but I will give it a try if possible. We did a test fit in the shop and it looks like neither sole will work with that binding. Both boots went in, but were jammed in the front under the AFD and probably won't release propperly . I do have skis with Salomon STH2 WTR bindings, so they may work for the XTD. I will flush that out. I also like the idea of unlocking the boots when I coach my Race team. I am standing on the course a lot in ski boots and my race Lange's get uncomfortable after a while. I doubt either sole will fit in my race ski bindings, there's no hope there.
Now the hard part, I have to make a decision and factor in price. I actually liked the Slab the best due to fit comfort and feel of flex. It has the more cushy liner. (Neither liners are as cushy as a downhill boot) I like the WTR sole of the XTD and in general its pretty similar to the Slab overall. It has greater forward ROM too. The shop will give me a small discount since I am buying the shift bindings from them. Both boots are 2019 models and both are the same $700 price with the discount. My hesitation is the Slab's are on sale online (last years model) for around $550, so a decent savings there. The $700 for the XTD's is a reasonable price, as they are not discounted much on line. I plan to buy from this shop since they have been working with me. My preference is the Slab at the $550 price, but the shop won't price match since its last years model, not this years. This years Slab is around $700 online, so really the shop is being fair and consistent with the market.
This is long winded, but I thought I might "share" for others going through the process and give some feedback on both boots. Any advise on the three boots or my approach is always appreciated.
Thread Starter
TS
Still working on my AT setup purchases and thought I would share more info. I am about to pull the trigger on boots and bindings. Atomic Shift bindings for sure. The Atomics are in stores now, but the Salomon version of the shift is delayed a bit. That seems strange, and makes me wonder if they are making a minor change, but whatever.
Boots: Binding compatibility is a big issue with these boots. If you only tour in them, any AT boot works with "pin" bindings. If you want to use them in your alpine bindings, then you have to deep dive them. I plan to buy the Atomic Hawx XTD 130's because they have a WTR sole that will work in WTR alpine bindings (Salomon, Atomic, a few others). The Slaomon Slabs that I like the best have Touring soles and will not work in most alpine bindins. The only ones they work in are MNC rated bindings (only a couple on the market, like Tyrolia Attack2 14 AT). I want to use my new boots on my current tree skis and for coaching on race skis. I have two pairs of STH2 WTR bindins on various skis. I am going to do some binding remounting to get them on my tree skis and a pair I can use for coaching. Seems simple, but ski brake width is also an issue, so I will need a couple of new ski brakes as well. Its been quite the task to sort this all out but I think I am ready to take the plunge.
One last info I picked up, this years Salomon SLab Mtn boot has new plastic and is a little lighter and more progressive flex than earlier models. I thought it felt the same weight as the Atomic Hawx XTD boots and I think it is now. If not for the sole/binding compatibility, it was my favorite boot.
Boots: Binding compatibility is a big issue with these boots. If you only tour in them, any AT boot works with "pin" bindings. If you want to use them in your alpine bindings, then you have to deep dive them. I plan to buy the Atomic Hawx XTD 130's because they have a WTR sole that will work in WTR alpine bindings (Salomon, Atomic, a few others). The Slaomon Slabs that I like the best have Touring soles and will not work in most alpine bindins. The only ones they work in are MNC rated bindings (only a couple on the market, like Tyrolia Attack2 14 AT). I want to use my new boots on my current tree skis and for coaching on race skis. I have two pairs of STH2 WTR bindins on various skis. I am going to do some binding remounting to get them on my tree skis and a pair I can use for coaching. Seems simple, but ski brake width is also an issue, so I will need a couple of new ski brakes as well. Its been quite the task to sort this all out but I think I am ready to take the plunge.
One last info I picked up, this years Salomon SLab Mtn boot has new plastic and is a little lighter and more progressive flex than earlier models. I thought it felt the same weight as the Atomic Hawx XTD boots and I think it is now. If not for the sole/binding compatibility, it was my favorite boot.
I've been shoving AT boots into race bindings for years, as have plenty of other coaches. Crashing is not recommended, but otherwise it can work just fine. I can't believe you're coaching without a walk mode, although I suppose the importance of that might vary by age group (I generally work with older kids, which means a lot of time standing on the side of the hill, and being able to stand straight up is so nice).
The past two years, I've been on the original Lange Freetour XT 130s, with the non-DIN sole, and used them in everything from Dynafits to Fischer and (older) Atomic race bindings. I have released from the Fischers just fine; I haven't had any non-release incidents on the Atomics, but that's probably because I didn't crash on them (they're a 10-18 binding, so I try to make sure not to go slow). They ski almost like a real race boot, but as you noted, they're heavy compared to a true touring boot. I don't find the ROM limiting, as long as I loosen the Booster strap and cuff buckles sufficiently (unlike some other AT boots, unlocking walk mode alone doesn't totally unlock the cuff, which also makes it a little easier to ski in walk mode and feel something is off but not figure out exactly what until you get to the bottom).
Despite some other factors making me want to go to the Atomic, I'm probably going to pick up a new pair of Langes this year, as mine are beat (300ish days including a lot of hiking on sharp / hard surface), and I want the true DIN compatibility they offer for several reasons.
IMO, you can probably get away with a WTR sole in any almost binding with toe-height adjustment; they may also work in some that don't have it, but unfortunately toe-height adjustment isn't available in most (any?) modern race bindings.
The past two years, I've been on the original Lange Freetour XT 130s, with the non-DIN sole, and used them in everything from Dynafits to Fischer and (older) Atomic race bindings. I have released from the Fischers just fine; I haven't had any non-release incidents on the Atomics, but that's probably because I didn't crash on them (they're a 10-18 binding, so I try to make sure not to go slow). They ski almost like a real race boot, but as you noted, they're heavy compared to a true touring boot. I don't find the ROM limiting, as long as I loosen the Booster strap and cuff buckles sufficiently (unlike some other AT boots, unlocking walk mode alone doesn't totally unlock the cuff, which also makes it a little easier to ski in walk mode and feel something is off but not figure out exactly what until you get to the bottom).
Despite some other factors making me want to go to the Atomic, I'm probably going to pick up a new pair of Langes this year, as mine are beat (300ish days including a lot of hiking on sharp / hard surface), and I want the true DIN compatibility they offer for several reasons.
IMO, you can probably get away with a WTR sole in any almost binding with toe-height adjustment; they may also work in some that don't have it, but unfortunately toe-height adjustment isn't available in most (any?) modern race bindings.
Just to clarify for others since above two posts reference a lot of things:
WTR or Gripwalk yes you can probably get away with it -- like found on the Hawx XTD or Freetour XT.
A touring sole like you find on the Salomon Mtn Lab boot -- not so much. WTR and Gripwalk at least have a hardish rubber area where they meet the AFD. A Touring sole like you find on something like a Mtn Lab / Maestrale / Hoji has a soft rubber sole that will not release as cleanly if you shove it into an alpine binding.
I'm not saying it's a good idea, but before the more-recent crops of alpine/AT hybrid boots, I've seen a lot of coaches in race bindings and full-on touring boots. Release was clearly going to be adversely affected, but they either just cranked down the DIN or made sure they didn't have any twisting falls (and would switch to actual race boots if they intended to ski). It can be done, but again, it's not a great idea, particularly given that there are a lot of better options out there now.
Thread Starter
TS
I coach the older kids as well (U14 and up) and yup, I am so looking forward to a walk mode. I am at a small local hill, so at least I am not moving great distances. I am old school and I have one pair of boots, period. I now have multiple pairs of skis, but that is only in the last 5-6 years. So now I will have two pair of boots and complicate my life, and improve my coaching "cold, stiff feet" typical training sessions.
I actually brought some of my skis to the shop to see what bindings I could get what boot into. It was kind of interesting. I did it twice and the first shop person was kool trying to "stuff" a boot into an incompatible binding. Some just didn't fit no matter what. The second guy was saying "these are not compatible, you can't do it" and I was saying, yeah I know, but I want to see if it physically fits. He took some convincing before he would let me even try.
Even though we should not use an incompatible boot / binding combo, the reality is a lot of nights, I ride to the top of the hill, ski half way down, take my skis off and stand there for an hour or more. If I am doing that, I don't really worry about releasing out of my skis. If I was going to be making some runs, or running gates, that would be an entirely different situation and I would be checking my releasability before even considering it. I will have both boots in the car in case things change during the training and I need to ski. Although, with my new WTR touring boots, I will have a compatible boot/binding so no worries I guess.
Your use case sounds very much like mine, and wanting to keep to one pair of boots is part of the reason I'm skiing on the Freetour. If you like the Lange race boots and can put up with the weight touring, the Freetour 140 could be just the ticket.
The other benefit is that I can blame the boot weight when I can't keep up on the skin track rather than other possible culprits like fitness level.
The other benefit is that I can blame the boot weight when I can't keep up on the skin track rather than other possible culprits like fitness level.
One thing is sliding down the race track, the other thing is skiing. I stuff my Dynafit TLT6 boots (with those shi**ty short "bumps" on toe and hill (sorry no idea what's proper word for that), into Rossi race bindings, when going to work. For me, main priority for working boots are light boot, really good walking mode, and good grip on snow, to avoid using crampons. And TLT6 works good. But when it comes to safety, I wouldn't consider that as safe option at all. As these boots are anything but compatible with normal bindings, I set bindings few clicks too short, to squeeze boot more into the binding on from as well as back, and I add few more clicks into already super high DIN settings, just to avoid skis going off, as last thing you want to do, is losing ski on top of icy Hausbergkante in Kitzbuehel, with 100.000 people laughing at you
But thing is, at "skiing" like that, you don't really need safe release and all that stuff. But that means, for real skiing, where you actually want skis to release if needed, you simply don't go with this combo 
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- Nov 12, 2015
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I know a former US Team member who coaches in a tele boot stuffed into a race binding.
My reading between the lines of the Campbell Study (showed that all movable AFDs failed and one binding not marketed as AT compatible provided decent full rubber AT release) seems it must be the STH2, but he won't name brands/models.
https://www.wildsnow.com/21152/ski-binding-release-avalanche-safety/
Anyone else who read this come to the same conclusion?
https://www.wildsnow.com/21152/ski-binding-release-avalanche-safety/
Anyone else who read this come to the same conclusion?
