AT boot fit compared to existing Lange alpine boot

[Mister Mann]

I don't believe there are any local (metro NYC) stores stocking AT boots, so I'd like to try mail order. I also get discounts through work on some brands (Scarpa, Dynafit, & La Sportiva).

My alpine boot is a Lange RS 120 in a 26, which fits me well. My street shoe size is 11. Can anyone suggest an AT boot whose fit profile might be comparable to the Lange? Thanks!

 

[BMC]

The Lange XT Free Tour 130 or 120!!!!

The fit will be essentially identical to your normal Alpine boots. It has Dynafit toe fittings. It has walk mode with an adequate range of motion. They’re Langes!! Reputedly they’re the best skiing AT boot (per Blister).

If you’re doing long tours with a long stride then maybe you could look at other boots. If though your touring is short to moderate and you want the same or similar downhill performance as your Alpine boots, they’re ideal.

If I’m honest with myself I never do long tours so the Lange Free Tours are perfect for me.

 

[Analisa]

The closest you’ll get to matching the Langes is with the Lange Freetours, but they’re pretty heavy and the range of motion in walk mode is pretty small and it can make your stride short (think running in a pencil skirt).

If you're doing more "touring touring" than slackcountry, the Atomic Hawx 130 gets rave reviews and is a little more uphill friendly, while still being a 4 buckle, narrow, stiff boot.

If you're trying to get something from your discounted brands, most of their thinner plastics are bendable enough to get a snug fit, while the tongues give it a stiffer flex. The Beast or the old Vulcan from Dynafit are probably the narrowest that still have decent-ish downhill performance. Scarpa Maestrale RS gets great reviews but might be a tad wide. La Sportiva is usually uphill focused, with the exception of the Spectre/Sparkle, but most of my friends who have gotten them have been lukewarm. They tend to show up all over craigslist out here.

 

[KevinF]

I have a pair of Lange RS130's for lift-serviced and a pair of Lange XT130's for touring. I haven't done much touring (yet) and certainly not anything "long", but I don't know that there is anything "long" in the northeast.

The XT's are definitely softer then the RS's despite both being "130"'s; that said, they still ski realllyyy nice. If you're comfy in RS's, you'll be comfy in XT's.

I like downhill performance over uphill performance; as mentioned above, the stride length on the XT's isn't great, but the downhill is sweet.

 

[Mister Mann]

Thanks, everyone, for the great info.

For touring, I've mainly done more nordic-type, classic Adirondack rolling backcountry skiing, rather than climbing on skins and skiing steeper lines. My current setup is Madshus Epoch and Scarpa T4. Last season I added skins, so was able to do steeper uphill tours. While I love the flexibility of that setup for rugged touring, I will never be confident or proficient enough to make telemark turns or even parallel turns on that setup through trees or on anything steep, particularly in the northeast, so want something more capable on the downhill.

So I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for. I would love to be able to do more uphill/downhill touring, and would love to do some more of that in larger western mountains, but also don't want something terribly heavy for the kind of skiing I'm likely to do mostly closer to home.

I have to say that the variety of touring equipment available (binding/boot systems) now is fairly confusing, and there just isn't a knowledgeable retail presence in my neck of the woods.

 

[Analisa]

Gotcha, then I take back all my other recs! What kind of bindings are you using with your T4s? Tele gear hasn't seen the same amount of innovation on weight savings compared to AT, so you can probably get a setup with decent downhill chops with little extra weight compared to your current setup. (For reference, you're probably around 11lbs before bindings on your current setup, 5 for skis and close to 6 on boots).

In terms of clearing up the confusion on categories, I'd break the options down into subcategories:

-Skimo race gear: designed to be the lightest think you could possibly survival ski down. Full setups are <10lbs (3-4 for each boots and skis, under half on the bindings). Boots in this range would be the Scarpa Alien line, Dynafit PDG, Atomic Backland Ultimate, La Sportiva Raceborg or Stratos. Cuff rotation on these also tend to be 65-80 degrees for a really long & efficient stride. Skis tend to be under 75mm in width.

-Speed Touring gear: here in the PNW, people go with these for beer league skimo racing since it's cheaper than the primo gear and also is burly enough to do double duty for spring & summer when people start doing 6-8k elevation days for volcano skiing or overnight traverses. Boots in this category would be a Dynafit TLT7, Atomic Backland, Scarpa F1, Roxa RX 1.0, La Sportiva Spitfire or Siderall, Arcteryx Procline, or Salomon X-Lab Explore. Cuff rotation is usually right around 60 degrees. Skis tend to be 80-90mm in width. Full setup will be around 11-12lbs (4-5lbs on boots, 5-6 on skis, around 1 for bindings).

-Middle of the road: Probably the most popular touring gear since it hits a sweet spot where the average day tourer can tolerate the weight on the way up and tolerate the downhill performance on the way down. Tons of options since this is where the burliest AT brand options overlap with the lightest inbound brand options. Skis tend to be 90-110 underfoot, depending on what part of the country you're in. Boots tend to be 6-7lbs with 50-60deg of cuff rotation. Tons of options, but a few are the Dynafit Hoji, Scarpa Maestrale, La Sportiva Spectre, Atomic Hawx XTD line, the updates to Tecnica ZeroGs. Full setups sit around 15-17lbs.

-Burly boots: Skis downhill exactly like downhill boots. But sometimes, they uphill like downhill boots. These are closer to 8lbs. Before a lot of innovation over the past 4-5 years in the prior category, most inbound boot brands would tack tech fittings into their downhill boots and call it a day. They usually had walk modes around 40 degrees, but some of the new models like the Full Tilt Ascendant or the Dalbello Lupo line make up for that with a large cuff rotation to keep the skinning efficient, so you're at least getting a long stride each time you pick up the heavier boots. Older models like the Lange Freetours, Rossignol Alltrack Elite, K2 Pinnacle 130 and the old Tecnica Cochise stick to 40. Works well for slackcountry or for devout enthusiasts for those brands, but they're really lagging behind the market. I feel like stronger touring option from Lange could be super successful.

Also, you can mix and match across categories (speed touring boot with a middle of the road ski, for example), but setups handle a little awkwardly when the pairings are really different (like a skimo race boot with a middle of the road ski).

 

[Primoz]

I still didn't get anything new for myself so still searching... and jumping into threads Another option I found is new Rossi Alltrack Elite 130 LT. I actually saw them now in Soelden, when friend of mine had them, but he had 26 (and I have 27.5) so there was no chance to actually try them, and for skiing part, they actually look good, and I'm sure they would do good for that, but what's bothering me is uphill part. My current AT (and work) boots are Dynafit TLT6, which they feel like super light slippers for home, and I'm worried how something like previously mentioned Rossi (or even Atomic Hawk Ultra XTD 130 that are second option) would do on uphill. Most of my backcountry skiing is one or two uphills totaling in 1500-2000m of ascend and most of them are under 3h, but few are up to 6 or 7h totals. I know I probably shouldn't worry if boots are few 100g heavier then this what I had until now, as long as I drag bulky Rossi Super7 and Marker Duke uphill. And I'm crazy enough I actually managed to get through one 8h long skimo with my Rossi race boots (please don't ask why the hell would anyone do that), so I'm sure Alltrack would be fine, but...
So anyone with some insight on new Alltrack or even comparison to some other, like Atomic Hawk?

 

[jmeb]

So anyone with some insight on new Alltrack or even comparison to some other, like Atomic Hawk?

Neither is as good at a TLT6 going uphill, but the Hawx isn't far off.

From TLT6 to Hawx you gain a 1/2lbs per foot and lose some mobility (and a better sole for hiking.) From Hawx to Alltrack you gain another 1/2lb per foot, lose more mobility, and (unless you swap out the stock soles) get a worse sole for hiking in.

TLT6 is ~1200g. The Alltrack is ~1600g. Whether 400g / foot matters to you is up to you.

 

[Primoz]

@jmeb I know that you can hardly beat TLT6 for going uphill, unless you go with pure super light skimo boots for 1000+eur that are more XC boots then alpine boots. But after noticing that more then half of my BC skiing is with heavy Super7 and not with lighter Soul7 or Seek7 (for these I have tech bindings anyway, so TLT6 will still stay in use for that), I decided I need something that can actually drive those Super7 the way I want, and TLT6 is not that, as it's simply too soft to ski a bit harder ski properly. So that's why I'm searching for something "more alpine". I don't race so lost seconds on way up are not an issue, and I'm in relatively good shape so I don't think extra few 100g will matter all that much. But as I wrote, I'm still somehow worried how something like Hawx or Alltrack would be now when I'm used to TLT6, especially in mobility range, as based on characteristics, both have about 10deg less motion range then TLT. But as I also said, I agree TLT is pretty much like light soft running shoe and not ski boot, so I'm sure it's impossible to get similar stuff with decent downhill performance.

 

[jmeb]

and TLT6 is not that, as it's simply too soft to ski a bit harder ski properly. So that's why I'm searching for something "more alpine".

In my experience tinkering a lot with both TLT5s and TLT6s, I found stiffness is not the issue for me when driving a larger ski (115ish). The issue is their low cuff height and lack of weight. Low cuff height makes it harder to push into -- a different liner and a Booster strap helped noticeably. The lack of weight means they don't dampen vibrations well. They are actually very stiff boots, and can be stiffer if you t-nut on a Vulcan tongue.

But as I wrote, I'm still somehow worried how something like Hawx or Alltrack would be now when I'm used to TLT6, especially in mobility range, as based on characteristics, both have about 10deg less motion range then TLT.

Keep in mind that the listed degrees of motion aren't actually that informative when it comes to touring. Cuff friction and liner mobility matter a ton. While the Alltrack is only "10 degrees" less, it does not move nearly as freely across its range as the Hawx XTD or the TLT. (I have a similar issue with the Mtn Lab).

Oh and I'd add -- if you can fit into a TLT-series without upsizing, the Hawx XTD is likely a better fit. Very low volume heel pocket and narrow forefoot is more like a TLT. Although all this depends slightly on which TLT6 you have as their last changed a bit (newer ones are wider) despite no name change.

 

[Primoz]

Thanks for this! When I was just looking those boots from friend (Alltrack), I had feelings like cuff would be way harder to move (like it would move when walking) then with TLT, even without liner in, but I was like "that's just me". Well obviously that's not just me then Big thanks for this info again

 

[Mister Mann]

Gotcha, then I take back all my other recs! What kind of bindings are you using with your T4s? Tele gear hasn't seen the same amount of innovation on weight savings compared to AT, so you can probably get a setup with decent downhill chops with little extra weight compared to your current setup. (For reference, you're probably around 11lbs before bindings on your current setup, 5 for skis and close to 6 on boots).

In terms of clearing up the confusion on categories, I'd break the options down into subcategories:

-Skimo race gear: designed to be the lightest think you could possibly survival ski down. Full setups are <10lbs (3-4 for each boots and skis, under half on the bindings). Boots in this range would be the Scarpa Alien line, Dynafit PDG, Atomic Backland Ultimate, La Sportiva Raceborg or Stratos. Cuff rotation on these also tend to be 65-80 degrees for a really long & efficient stride. Skis tend to be under 75mm in width.

-Speed Touring gear: here in the PNW, people go with these for beer league skimo racing since it's cheaper than the primo gear and also is burly enough to do double duty for spring & summer when people start doing 6-8k elevation days for volcano skiing or overnight traverses. Boots in this category would be a Dynafit TLT7, Atomic Backland, Scarpa F1, Roxa RX 1.0, La Sportiva Spitfire or Siderall, Arcteryx Procline, or Salomon X-Lab Explore. Cuff rotation is usually right around 60 degrees. Skis tend to be 80-90mm in width. Full setup will be around 11-12lbs (4-5lbs on boots, 5-6 on skis, around 1 for bindings).

-Middle of the road: Probably the most popular touring gear since it hits a sweet spot where the average day tourer can tolerate the weight on the way up and tolerate the downhill performance on the way down. Tons of options since this is where the burliest AT brand options overlap with the lightest inbound brand options. Skis tend to be 90-110 underfoot, depending on what part of the country you're in. Boots tend to be 6-7lbs with 50-60deg of cuff rotation. Tons of options, but a few are the Dynafit Hoji, Scarpa Maestrale, La Sportiva Spectre, Atomic Hawx XTD line, the updates to Tecnica ZeroGs. Full setups sit around 15-17lbs.

-Burly boots: Skis downhill exactly like downhill boots. But sometimes, they uphill like downhill boots. These are closer to 8lbs. Before a lot of innovation over the past 4-5 years in the prior category, most inbound boot brands would tack tech fittings into their downhill boots and call it a day. They usually had walk modes around 40 degrees, but some of the new models like the Full Tilt Ascendant or the Dalbello Lupo line make up for that with a large cuff rotation to keep the skinning efficient, so you're at least getting a long stride each time you pick up the heavier boots. Older models like the Lange Freetours, Rossignol Alltrack Elite, K2 Pinnacle 130 and the old Tecnica Cochise stick to 40. Works well for slackcountry or for devout enthusiasts for those brands, but they're really lagging behind the market. I feel like stronger touring option from Lange could be super successful.

Also, you can mix and match across categories (speed touring boot with a middle of the road ski, for example), but setups handle a little awkwardly when the pairings are really different (like a skimo race boot with a middle of the road ski).

This is super-helpful and probably the best breakdown I've read. Thanks for this! And bindings too?

 

[Analisa]

And bindings too?

Like which bindings fall in each category?

 

[jmeb]

SkiMo: Race bindings. ~120-140g. Titanium, no lateral release, no adjustments. You know if you need these. Black Diamon Helio 110, Dynafit Low Tech Race, etc.

Speed touring: Race bindings with a few additional features like lateral release at the heel, maybe adjustable release values, or adjustable BSLs. Dynafit Superlight, ATK Haute Route 2.0, Black diamond Helio 200.

Touring: Bread and butter of the bindings. Lots fall into this range. 3-500g / binding. adjustable release, brakes, more and more features. Dynafit Speed radical, Salomon Mtn Explore, Marker Alpinist, G3 Zed / Ion, Dynafit Radical 2.0, Fristichi Vipec, etc.

Beef touring bindings: More weight, more release features, higher DINs, often Alpine-style heels. Marker Kingpin, Fristichi Tecton, Salomon/Atomic Shift.

Note: these aren't clear categories, its a continuum. The G3 Zed is more "speed" than the Ion or Radical 2.0, the Fritschi Vipec to more "beef" than most touring, but less than the other big "beef" bindings.

 

[Mister Mann]

Like which bindings fall in each category?

Yes--I don't quite understand the tech/frame/NTN/fritschi other bindings, which are safer in terms of release, and generally if there is a preferred brand now . Primarily want to make sure the binding I get will work with whichever boot I choose.

A second question is which boots of the middle-of-the road category are the narrowest, or have a last most comparable to the Langes. I have a fairly flat, narrow foot, and the Langes fit me well with custom insoles. I can pick up the Hoji PX for around $475 and the Maestrale for $430.

 

[jmeb]

Oh, I left of Frame bindings.

Because touring in frame bindings.....suck.

 

[jmeb]

Yes--I don't quite understand the tech/frame/NTN/fritschi other bindings, which are safer in terms of release, and generally if there is a preferred brand now . Primarily want to make sure the binding I get will work with whichever boot I choose.

Safest: Arguably the Shift is the safest. But you pay a weight penalty, and it's brand new so may have issues (most every 1st year tech binding has). After that the Vipec/Tecton are the only other tech bindings with lateral release at the toe which is an important safety feature. Past that, no tech binding really has a legit claim to be safer than another.

Binding/boot: If you get a boot with a full heel/toe welt, that matches ISO9523, it will fit in any touring binding. Note that boots that have Quickstep inserts (certain Dynafits and Scarpas) are not indemnified in Shifts -- Amer has claimed it doesn't match ISO9523.

A second question is which boots of the middle-of-the road category are the narrowest, or have a last most comparable to the Langes. I have a fairly flat, narrow foot, and the Langes fit me well with custom insoles. I can pick up the Hoji PX for around $475 and the Maestrale for $430.

Hoji has nice heel pocket, but not as compatible with all boots (no toe welt). Depending on your binding this is non issue. Wider forefoot. Maestrale is a popular boot. Based on your foot, Atomic Hawx XTD and Tecnica Zero G Pro should be on your list.

 

[Analisa]

Yes--I don't quite understand the tech/frame/NTN/fritschi other bindings, which are safer in terms of release, and generally if there is a preferred brand now . Primarily want to make sure the binding I get will work with whichever boot I choose.

A second question is which boots of the middle-of-the road category are the narrowest, or have a last most comparable to the Langes. I have a fairly flat, narrow foot, and the Langes fit me well with custom insoles. I can pick up the Hoji PX for around $475 and the Maestrale for $430.

I agree with @jmeb about the Shifts & Tectons, but disagree about other bindings all being equal. Many don't quite perform consistently enough to be DIN certified, but they still have the same numerical options for release settings, other's (like the Salomon MTN) only have settings of "men's, women's, expert," and a handful of race bindings can't adjust release settings at all. There's also differences with elastic travel, which affects how likely you are to pre-release. Wildsnow has a pretty good recap of the different categories of bindings, but I'd disagree with their choices for best in class (and based on the comments, it looks like I'm not the only one wondering why the Vipec/Tecton is missing).
https://www.wildsnow.com/23247/wildsnow-ultimate-ski-touring-binding-quiver/

In terms of narrowest & most comparable boots to the Langes, I'd say those are 2 different answers. I have a pair of Lange RX 110s and the shell fits well, but the ramp/lean angle and the 4 buckle design are all wrong for me. Salomons fit quite narrow, Atomic is on the narrower side and Atomic Hawx are narrow with a more similar 4 buckle design. A few friends who ski Lange LV models inbounds ski the La Sportiva Spectre or Sparkle. They say they have a 103 last, but the friend I know who are fans have narrow feet. I noticed the same thing in the Blister review of the new Roxa, which has a 99 last, fitting wider than the reviewer's La Spo Spectres. The old Dynafit fit had a similar thing going (high last number, but narrow foot fans - I ski a pair of Vulcans inbounds and out and love them, but they're a tad heavier than the rest of these). Their new Hoji boot is a different, wider fit.

If I had to put together a shortlist: Hawx, Salomon Mtn Explore or last year's S/Lab MTN (this year they hacked down the cuff rotation), or La Spo Spectre.

 

[jmeb]

I agree with @jmeb about the Shifts & Tectons, but disagree about other bindings all being equal. Many don't quite perform consistently enough to be DIN certified, but they still have the same numerical options for release settings, other's (like the Salomon MTN) only have settings of "men's, women's, expert," and a handful of race bindings can't adjust release settings at all.

All true -- I was trying to keep it at a relatively high level. Further clarifications:

- Shift / Tecton / Vipec are the only bindings to offer lateral release at the toe. This is the safety functionality that helps prevent spiral fractures of the tib/fib. No binding with a classic "tech toe" has this. If you're buying on safety features -- it's hard to look past this.
- DIN certification for touring bindings is not the same as alpine. So even if it is "DIN" certified, this does not mean it is safe in the way an alpine binding is.
- Elastic travel is found mostly in the heel of some bindings (Shift, Vipec, Tecton, Kingpin, Ion, Zed, Radical 2.0 ), and in the toe of a few (Vipec, Tecton, Shift). G3 claims "elastic" in the toe, but by that claim even a classic dynafit toe has some elastic. (Zed/Ion do have superior clamping force though, whether or not that's a good thing depends on the skier).

 

[Rod9301]

All true -- I was trying to keep it at a relatively high level. Further clarifications:

- Shift / Tecton / Vipec are the only bindings to offer lateral release at the toe. This is the safety functionality that helps prevent spiral fractures of the tib/fib. No binding with a classic "tech toe" has this. If you're buying on safety features -- it's hard to look past this.
- DIN certification for touring bindings is not the same as alpine. So even if it is "DIN" certified, this does not mean it is safe in the way an alpine binding is.
- Elastic travel is found mostly in the heel of some bindings (Shift, Vipec, Tecton, Kingpin, Ion, Zed, Radical 2.0 ), and in the toe of a few (Vipec, Tecton, Shift). G3 claims "elastic" in the toe, but by that claim even a classic dynafit toe has some elastic. (Zed/Ion do have superior clamping force though, whether or not that's a good thing depends on the skier).

I like the Salomon mtn binding. Very simple, string during in the toe to prevent pre releases.