• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.
Thread Starter
TS
Philpug

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
42,624
Location
Reno, eNVy
Funny, we just watched a cool documentary on Monopoly, was about how game started and world wide tournaments that happen every year. It also talked abotu the strategy of the game. This kinda reminds me of Monopoly where these players are buying up properties. Vail is buying the Browns, Purples, Lt. Blues and Magentas and KSL is buying the Reds, Oranges, Yellows and Greens. No one os bothering with Park Place and Boardwalk (Yellowstone Club) yet. In the end, you don't win at Monopoly with cheap properties.
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
@Jed Peters, I think we're saying the same thing, though I may not be that articulate.

When this was first announced, and the predominant "battle cry" was pass wars with Vail Results and Epic, my "intel" was leading me to say "not so fast." I have thought all along that this is headed toward a portfolio of the best and most high end ski resorts in North America, obviously with some exceptions being owned by Vail.

You are not going to see KSL/HCC acquiring feeder hills to run at breakeven at best, to drive traffic to their destination resorts.

I see this as creating a groupie of high end customers and skiers who would be very interested in leaving their normal ski experience for a couple of weeks a season to experience a very similar ski experience else where. I don't know if it needs to be pampering, but I think it needs to be absolute best in class in terms of the experience, the staff, the physical plant.....the hotels, condos, restaurants, etc.

Over the past few years I have heard a number of pretty well known ski resorts who's names have been floated as for sale....including the entire CNL portfolio now owned by Och-Ziff, and the impression that I was given {normally one person removed, sometimes more, sometimes less} was that KSL would have no interest down the road in them. Some of these are pretty good brands.

For example, I am under the impression that KSL had no interest in Stowe. Never engaged despite probably being among the first calls by the bankers. That is their business, BTW.

I can absolutely see KSL/HCC being interested in the skiER and family. makes perfect sense. And carving that segment away from VR to a large degree.

There may be a lot of plays that link NON ski resorts to this KSL/HCC portfolio as essentially a high end resort club as well. I think we'll see more global properties.

I had mentioned at one point that this will just be getting started when the Intrawest and Mammoth deals got around to closing. No chance in her that Intrawest stays as is. It was not very successful. Some of those properties will be peeled away.

I think it will be very interesting.
 
Last edited:

Chriscray

Booting up
Skier
Joined
May 3, 2017
Posts
66
Location
Park City
As a local here and a total ski DV advocate, I sincerely hope the best for the future of DV (and the Park City area). I don't know big business except that many times 'big wigs' don't have a pulse on the workers/locals. They have meetings with bar graphs, etc...
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
I'd suggest that any discussion of the YSC is terms of it being a destination resort are a bit off base. It's a private club. The membership have agreed to cap membership at about 850 families, I believe. I think they are at close to 700 now. The place has a very different feel than it did 10 years ago, when the average family spent 20 days a year there. Now it's 60+.

When Sam Byrne, a PE guy, and his firm bought the place as a result of the previous owner's bankruptcy, he did so as a member, and property owner who wanted to save it. He did not go into it as an opportunistic investor. I believe that the process of transferring the ownership of the entire place }or handing it off as they say} has already begun.

Yes, Cross Harbor, Sam's firm has obviously been very active with buying Spanish Peaks and Moonlight Basin, partnering with Big Sky, etc. It's all designed to make the YSC experience unique. Unless you have been there, and know a few members, you really can't appreciate the feel of the place. You won't see and Kardashians or Access Hollywood there filming, shall we say.

But nobody is going to acquire or buy the YSC. It's going to be a private club in every sense of the word very soon. I think I'd take that one off the board.

But yeah.....Jackson Hole, Sun Valley, etc.? I think we're seeing that KSL/HCC is not going to be buying up areas like Wilmot, Afton Alps, etc. I think we'll see a fundamentally different business. A big one, and a dominant one, yes.

A Stop friend of mine made the comment that for him, being a part of something like KSL/HCC is assembling even if his pass price had remained at roughly $2K is much, much more attractive than the Epic Pass, the likely crowds at Stowe, and the "opportunity" to go ski using his Epic Pass where he and his family would likely never, ever ski. This guy is the target market for KSL/HCC.

He might take his family to DV, Squaw, Aspen, even Steamboat, Mammoth and spend a huge amount of money{in my terms} on a week.
He is that kind of customer.

I just do not see VR and KSL/HCC looking much alike down the road.
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
If anything, I might look very carefully at a lot of the areas what make up the MCP, and think about KSL/HCC's future growth. These guys have a huge war chest, and they appear to be reasonable buyers, not bottom feeders.

Back when the Intrawest deal was announced a few of us said that it was just the start of a lot of moving pieces. a few days later it was Mammoth. Shortly after the closing it's DV.

Check out the ownership of some of the MCP areas. I can see deals on the horizon.

And I agree.....no need for the MCP to go away, IMO. Might get tweaked a bit.
 

Tricia

The Velvet Hammer
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
27,297
Location
Reno
If anything, I might look very carefully at a lot of the areas what make up the MCP, and think about KSL/HCC's future growth. These guys have a huge war chest, and they appear to be reasonable buyers, not bottom feeders.

Back when the Intrawest deal was announced a few of us said that it was just the start of a lot of moving pieces. a few days later it was Mammoth. Shortly after the closing it's DV.

Check out the ownership of some of the MCP areas. I can see deals on the horizon.

And I agree.....no need for the MCP to go away, IMO. Might get tweaked a bit.
Exactly!
:toast
 
Thread Starter
TS
Philpug

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
42,624
Location
Reno, eNVy
If anything, I might look very carefully at a lot of the areas what make up the MCP, and think about KSL/HCC's future growth. These guys have a huge war chest, and they appear to be reasonable buyers, not bottom feeders.

Back when the Intrawest deal was announced a few of us said that it was just the start of a lot of moving pieces. a few days later it was Mammoth. Shortly after the closing it's DV.

Check out the ownership of some of the MCP areas. I can see deals on the horizon.

And I agree.....no need for the MCP to go away, IMO. Might get tweaked a bit.
Might be able choose packages at different price points. Liek we said, I thing there is more to come. :popcorn:

IMHO, this is going to make it difficult for resorts that end up on the outside of the MNC and Epic passes. I see these getting together and creating thier own pass.
 

Started at 53

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Posts
2,129
Location
Not Ikon, UT
Wait.... Is it April 1st again?

DV is our (ok my wife's) ski destination of choice. Any big changes at DV will not make her happy, as in snowboarders and lifting the daily limit
 

dlague

Waitin' for Wintah
Skier
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Posts
224
Location
Colorado
More from Deer Valley.

Many questions answered.

this is getting confusing

Question: Is Aspen Snowmass part of the new entity?

Answer: No, there is no inclusion of current Aspen Snowmass resorts in this transaction. Aspen remains independent, and we will explore opportunities to work together when and where it is appropriate.

the title of this article suggests otherwise but I think the journalist misrepresented.

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/21/aspen-skiing-ksl-capital-venture-buys-utahs-deer-valley/
 
Thread Starter
TS
Philpug

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
42,624
Location
Reno, eNVy
Almost every reply from Deer Valley regarding snowboading has include "at this time..." we don't plan on changing the policy. One reply from a home over was "We would prefer if you said "We never plan on changing the policy on snowboarding" "
 

DoryBreaux

Not the Pixar Character
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
948
Location
Sleeping in a mop closet
These big acquisitions are so last year. Really, cant top VR taking over WBC in my eyes.
I know @Philpug has heard me say this almost every year since we met but... I'm getting a sled.
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
Jason Blevins, the reporter for the Denver Post, continually and repeatedly seems to get this detail wrong.

Henry Crown, his family and the various entities own Aspen SkiCo, which is the four ski areas in Aspen {Aspen aka Ajax, Highlands, Buttermilk, and Snowmass}. For simplicity the Crown Family and HCC are the same.

They are NOT rolling Aspen SkiCo, or any of these ski operations into the new combined entity. It gets complicated because KSL is a partner in some development at Snowmass. Nothing to do with the actually skiing, though.

So HCC is the entity that is partnering with KSL on Squaw, Mammoth, Intrawest, Deer Valley and who knows what more to follow. It is NOT "Aspen."

Blevins and others referring to it as Aspen has never been accurate. It's the OWNER of Aspen {the ski operations, not the town!}that is partnering with KSL. HCC, not Aspen.

It further gets complicated when a guy like Dave Perry leaves Aspen to become one of the senior guy of the new entity, essentially the ski area/operations guru. The whole thing has a lot of COO's, GM's, etc. It's a good deal for Dave. He lost out on the President's job at SkiCo to Mike Kaplan, years ago and has kept plugging away.

So Aspen SkiCo is NOT part of this, in terms of any ownership. I would look for them to be close partners in any marketing, and combined passes, etc. To the customer, I bet SkiCo will eventually look very much like the others.

My own personal opinion.......again, not totally uniformed {sorry I can't betray confidences on here....never do}, is that they bought Deer Valley because it is a "Gem", and it fits with this high end vision. They do not intend to screw it up. Will they look at everything? Probably.

Do they gain more, or lose more by having snowboarding? Do they gain more by limiting the numbers on the hill, or lose? By "gain", I mean keeping high end clientele who treasure the place, will bring their friends, and who will spend for the experience. Not every skier is seeking "deals." By "lose" I mean alienating those same people.

My guess is no change to either. And I would not be looking for any price cuts.

Just a hunch.....

BTW, in case you missed it in the fine print, the Crown family are the biggest private holders of GeneralDynamics stock. This is a seriously wealthy family, who happen to love Aspen. Henry is the patriarch. Good people.
 
Last edited:

AmyPJ

Skiing the powder
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,835
Location
Ogden, UT
Yep. MUCH more to come, in more ways than one. The assumption among many is that KSL/HCC will be building a very nice portfolio of resorts, and shedding the ones that do not fit. A few of us have made similar comments here, most often to be reposted to by "no, this is them against Vail Resorts."

I do not hear that from folks that I think have a handle on this. I do not see any Epic Pass wars, in terms of gutted pricing. Combined deals, yes. Combined pricing yes. Best in class resorts? That is my heavy bet. High End? Yes, that has been discussed at length. Doesn't get much more high end than DV.

I can see one in their sights in WY, one in UT, maybe MT, and so on........

Not a bit surprised about this one. I think it's been underway for quite some time. Also doubt if it will be their last in Utah.

Aspen Ski Company, aka SkiCo, is NOT part of this combined entity. The Aspen connection is that the owner of SkiCo, Henry Crown and Company {the Crown Family} are the other partner, and the heavy betting, which we have already seen with David Perry's move, is that we'll see a lot of best practices and Aspen people move to the new company. My assumption is that the KSL group considers Aspen to be the gold standard of high end ski area operators. On hill stuff.

Vail keeps selling their stock, with metrics like total Epic Pass sales. KSL/HCC has no such pressure, and I assume no such plan, etc. They will create value, though, as that is the entire goal.

I hate to sound like a broken drum, but KSL/HCC and whatever they ultimately call this entity, is IMO not looking to be Vail Resorts 2.0

I also feel that there will be virtually zero competition between them to acquire properties, as I think they have different interests.

So will Och-Ziff be selling any to either VR, or KSL/HCC? Might be close to done until some post season closings. Or not.

More to follow.......

Snowbasin would fit their mold quite well, I think. The future development plans of SB are pretty impressive (and also sad, to this local who spends almost every day of the year up there in some fashion, whether on skis or a bike or my feet.)
 

Lorenzzo

Be The Snow
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
2,984
Location
UT
DV's longtime GM Bob Wheaton was interviewed on local radio this afternoon and indicated the following:

1. DV will continue limiting daily ticket sales as before but he foresees the cap increasing to the extent quality will not be compromised. (I know...non-sensical).

2. Snowboarders will continue to be banned "for the time being" but they will no longer be hunted down and killed.

3. The Mayflower development is likely to proceed at a faster rate including the addition of 1,000 skiable acres, homes and a large base facility possibly becoming the primary.

4. The new owners are "committed to maintaining the same level of quality and skier experience."

5. Pass products will not change. No mention was made of the Mountain Collective or any reciprocal arrangements other than what is currently in place (Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, Solitude, Steamboat free days for season pass holders).

6. The selling entity will continue to press ahead with plans for major improvements at Solitude.

This of course is the selling entity speaking. Bob Wheaton has many long time friends in town and presumably would like to avoid the flak received by the Cummings when they sold.

In my opinion Deer Valley could increase both daily ticket and season pass prices 30 to 50% today without losing material volume. If I was private equity I would start by doing that until I figured out which approach was most accretive, i.e. Epic Pass type product, high- priced boutique, etc.

As far as local sentiment, I foresee local bars doing fairly well this evening.
 

Sponsor

Top