Are your footbeds the source of your foot pain?

[Noodler]

I've been going through my old boot quiver trying to come up with something that will work for my screwed up right leg this season. In my troubleshooting effort to relieve foot pain I discovered (or possibly re-discovered as it's been so long that I might have figured this out previously) that putting your footbeds directly in your shells on top of the bootboards is an excellent way to diagnose whether they may be a source of foot pain when wearing your ski boots.

The process I used was to remove the liners from the shells and then remove the footbeds and place them directly on the bootboards in the shells. Then slip your feet into the boots and stand directly on the footbeds in the shells with no liners. What I was trying to sense was whether the footbed was evenly supporting my feet over the entire contact area. No areas of high pressure, hot spots, general discomfort, etc. Ideally I would like to have a pressure sensitive pad between the footbed and the bootboard to get direct measurements of the pressure levels, but without that I just had to "tune in" to what my feet were feeling.

The key here is that your foot/lower leg, footbed, bootboard, liner, and shell form a "system" that must all mesh well together to work best for your skiing performance and comfort. I always recommend getting a custom footbed to address any biomechanical deficiencies that may be present (stance alignment issues), but getting that custom footbed to marry the rest of the components without creating pain can be an issue. I have many, many custom footbeds that have been built for me over the years. I'd love to say that they all worked well, but obviously I wouldn't have so many if any of them was perfect.

What I discovered through this process was that some simple modifications of a couple sets of my footbeds (using a table top belt grinder) removed the problem areas that were creating hot spots under my feet. After these modifications I found that putting the whole "system" back together resulted in a much better pain free fit.

I had to go through this re-fitting process due to the changes in my right leg because of further complications I have experienced over the past few years due to a ski accident I had over 10 years ago.

This may already be common knowledge and been discussed previously, but it worked so well for me that I thought I'd throw it up here in case it might help someone else. Cheers.

 

[Philpug]

I had to go through this re-fitting process due to the changes in my right leg because of further complications I have experienced over the past few years due to a ski accident I had over 10 years ago.

This was my first thought as i was reading this, I remember that you had a really bad accident a number of years ago. First obvious question is, are the footbeds in question made before the accident? You also mentioned that you have numerous ones. I do too, but all of mine were made the same way, semi weighted. Were yours made in different methods, weighted, semi weighted or unweighted? Did your accident created a leg length discrepancy or other possible alignment issues?

 

[BGreen]

Most insoles that were molded with heat can be remolded with heat. InstaPrint in particular can be relaxed slightly with a hair dryer. One fitter molded several insoles that I didn't like and I was able to easily reshape the arch and heel cup without doing to full remold.

 

[ski otter 2]

I had an issue with footbeds I only slowly realized I had, by stages: at one point, in desperation, I took a belt sander and a dremel tool to multiple footbeds, first wherever there were pressure points, and finally, wherever those things were thicker. Much better.

I didn't realize how much those too thick footbeds were a problem until it was more fully solved with a purposely built lower volume, thinner, footbed. The great fitter I went to right away said my footbeds were still too thick for my boots, and that he looked for that routinely, especially with low volume boots or race boots. (Ortho footbeds often have this problem also.)
Once he made a much thinner new footbed pair, the pains I'd been having with too little toe space, etc., were on their way out, with additional grinding and punching also.
I just skied them today, first day of the season. What a difference, problem solved - at least for now.

 

[Noodler]

And it's not just about the thickness of the footbed, you also need to be careful about width across all portions. There should be an equal amount of space between the outer edge of the footbed and the inside of the boot shell. Fitting the footbed to the liner sometimes can fool you into thinking you've got it correct when it actually is still too wide. I say this with experience as it occurred to me yesterday after additional thinning of the footbeds in the forefoot were not solving the issue. That's when I put the footbeds directly in the shells and realized what was happening. They fit fine in the liner when outside of the shell, but clearly because there was insufficient room across the width when in the shell, it was causing the footbed to "deform" and roll up a bit on the forefoot edges. I reduced the width of the footbeds and all is good now.

 

[Philpug]

A properly designed footbed is meant to accommodate and not correct, these are not orthotics. It there is one common mistake is to have a foothed that is too wide (and too long) especially when you are using the stock footbed as a size reference as you trace off, immediately it will be larger, it has to be cut in from the reference line, not where the line is still visable. The foot should sit on the footbed, not in it.

 

[Noodler]

The foot should sit ON the footbed, not in it.

That's a great way of putting it and I'm adding that to my notes.

 

[LiquidFeet]

A properly designed footbed is meant to accommodate and not correct, these are not orthotics. It there is one common mistake is to have a foothed that is too wide (and too long) especially when you are using the stock footbed as a size reference as you trace off, immediately it will be larger, it has to be cut in from the reference line, not where the line is still visable. The foot should sit on the footbed, not in it.

Phil, do you think there can ever be any reason to correct/adjust forefoot varus or any type of twisted foot anatomy at the heel by intentionally lifting a part of a footbed instead of lifting the bootsole?

 

[Tony S]

A properly designed footbed is meant to accommodate and not correct, these are not orthotics.

Can you expand on this? Surely you're not saying that a footbed should accommodate my collapsing arch and in-rolling ankle and rearfoot?

 

[eok]

First: glad to see this thread as this aspect of proper footbed fit isn't discussed that often.

... The foot should sit on the footbed, not in it.

Totally agree. I learned the hard way.

Had some trim-to-fits that seemed to be a proper size/fit. But, over a few ski days, I developed painful areas below the cuboid area in both boots. Worst on the right foot. Did a few quick inspections of the areas a few times - with liners in and out - but didn't detect anything I felt was significant. Went to a fitter expecting to get punches to solve the problem. Instead he quickly pointed out that the insoles just needed to be trimmed a bit more due to the insole curling up the side of the liner a bit too much. Took at most 30 seconds to fix the issue. The amount trimmed was very little; maybe a 1 or 2 mm strip off the area (I later sanded the cut edges to give them a bit of a taper). Can't believe I didn't figure this out myself.

 

[ski otter 2]

^^^^^^^This!!! In the course of properly fitting my footbeds/boots, finally, this summer, my bootfitter at one point responded to my feeling a particular pressure/pain area in both boots with the same quick fix - shaving just a mm or two from the edge of the footbeds in that area, so that the footbeds wouldn't pinch. Just a few seconds for the adjustment.
Magically, that last pain went away at once, in both feet.
I'd probably never have figured that out by myself, in that until it was pointed out, the pressure point just seemed to be one more place where the boot was too narrow and in need of more grinding. Not so.

 

[Philpug]

Can you expand on this? Surely you're not saying that a footbed should accommodate my collapsing arch and in-rolling ankle and rearfoot?

You have a collapsing arc, that is different than a flat foot, the footbed will accomidate by supporting it, the same with your prontation, it will hold it up.

 

[Tony S]

OMG, you should run for office, Phil.

 

[Monster]

And it's not just about the thickness of the footbed, you also need to be careful about width across all portions. There should be an equal amount of space between the outer edge of the footbed and the inside of the boot shell. Fitting the footbed to the liner sometimes can fool you into thinking you've got it correct when it actually is still too wide. I say this with experience as it occurred to me yesterday after additional thinning of the footbeds in the forefoot were not solving the issue. That's when I put the footbeds directly in the shells and realized what was happening. They fit fine in the liner when outside of the shell, but clearly because there was insufficient room across the width when in the shell, it was causing the footbed to "deform" and roll up a bit on the forefoot edges. I reduced the width of the footbeds and all is good now.

IMHO, this is spot-on.

It's hard to imagine that someone making a custom footbed wouldn't fit it to the shell as you describe. The footbed has to have room to retain its built-shape or it will cause trouble. Liners (especially heat-moldables) will move, but shells won't - you have to move them.

Another thing you'd think would be a fundamental but that gets missed is the interface of boot board and base of foot bed. I've never seen a new boot board that didn't have at least some shape to it, like minor arch lift, apparently in an attempt work with the stock foot beds through the liner sole in some sort of effort at foot support. If you make a custom footbed, you have to mate it to the board, either by to molding the base of it to the shape of the top of the boot board, or by flattening the top of the boot board to accept a flat-based foot bed. Because I make my footbeds with flat bases, the first thing I do to a boot is deck the boot board. Having a flat-based footbed (which many custom ones are) get distorted out of its shape by a not-flat boot board when you stand on it, or rocking and rolling on the boot board through the liner is a recipe for discomfort.

Heat moldable liners with thick soles (like 8 or 9 mm) may be able to mold to the shape of a stock boot board, but I've never had any luck getting those to perform well with that much squish underfoot, so I stick with thin soles.

 

[Noodler]

IHeat moldable liners with thick soles (like 8 or 9 mm) may be able to mold to the shape of a stock boot board, but I've never had any luck getting those to perform well with that much squish underfoot, so I stick with thin soles.

You just reminded me of another issue I've dealt with; the thickness of the footbed. Your comments about the thickness of the liner's soles reminded me of some Intuition liner models that have had soles that clearly weren't designed with custom footbeds in mind. The thickness of the liner sole when combined with the thickness of the footbed must be considered. I believe that the primary concerns should be focused on how your ankle/heel interfaces with the shell and where the widest point of your feet are located "vertically" in the shell.

My method for optmizing the ankle/heel interface is to place my bare foot in the shell directly on the bootboard; no footbed or liner involved. What I want to feel is how well the contours of the shell's ankle and heel pocket mesh with my foot. I slowly move my foot up and down in the shell to see how much thickness under my heel would still place my foot in the best position to match up with the ankle/heel pocket. For my boots I found that I really needed my heel to be very close to the bootboard to achieve the best fit. That knowledge drove me to grind the heels of the footbeds as thin as possible; almost to the point of creating a hole! With very little material between the bottom of my heel and the bootboard, I knew that my foot would be in the best position to get solid ankle/heel hold down that is supported by the shell, not just the liner. Of course my Head Raptor B3 RD boots have very well defined heel/ankle pockets; one of the things I love about those shells.

Getting the widest point of your foot in the correct vertical position in the shell can be more problematic. What I really need is a quick drawing, but I think most people understand that if you think of the shell as a simple cylinder laying on its side, then the widest portion of the cylinder is exactly at the half way point between the bottom and top. When a foot is placed in the "cylinder" and the widest portion is not where the shell is widest, then you might mistakenly think the shell is too small in width, when it's really a problem with positioning. Of course shells are not perfect cylinders; so the widest portion is usually a bit lower, but it's important that the footbed+liner thickness leaves your foot positioned approximately at the widest point. There's an added challenge of ramp angle that also comes into play. If you thin the forefoot of the footbed too much, you might be lowering your foot into a narrower part of the shell, but if you keep it thicker than the heel, you will be changing the ramp angle which may limit the amount of usable dorsiflexion range available. This starts to get into the minutiae of boot fitting, that I think is out of scope for this discussion.

Overall, this just points out once again the importance of how a custom footbed is built. It must be correct for your foot AND for the boot.

 

[Philpug]

Phil, do you think there can ever be any reason to correct/adjust forefoot varus or any type of twisted foot anatomy at the heel by intentionally lifting a part of a footbed instead of lifting the bootsole?

Yes. but again you are accomidating it, you are bringing the footbed up to meet the foot either varus or valgus. If there are medical issues, that is where an orthotic might be needed.

 

[Lorenzzo]

IMHO, this is spot-on.

It's hard to imagine that someone making a custom footbed wouldn't fit it to the shell as you describe. The footbed has to have room to retain its built-shape or it will cause trouble. Liners (especially heat-moldables) will move, but shells won't - you have to move them.

Another thing you'd think would be a fundamental but that gets missed is the interface of boot board and base of foot bed. I've never seen a new boot board that didn't have at least some shape to it, like minor arch lift, apparently in an attempt work with the stock foot beds through the liner sole in some sort of effort at foot support. If you make a custom footbed, you have to mate it to the board, either by to molding the base of it to the shape of the top of the boot board, or by flattening the top of the boot board to accept a flat-based foot bed. Because I make my footbeds with flat bases, the first thing I do to a boot is deck the boot board. Having a flat-based footbed (which many custom ones are) get distorted out of its shape by a not-flat boot board when you stand on it, or rocking and rolling on the boot board through the liner is a recipe for discomfort.

Heat moldable liners with thick soles (like 8 or 9 mm) may be able to mold to the shape of a stock boot board, but I've never had any luck getting those to perform well with that much squish underfoot, so I stick with thin soles.

I figured out this was my problem after a local bootfiter created the issue and didn't diagnose it. Now that the problem's been dealt with the issue's gone away.

 

[Noodler]

I figured out this was my problem after a local bootfiter created the issue and didn't diagnose it. Now that the problem's been dealt with the issue's gone away.

I believe that you set yourself up for improved chances of success if you go in to the process educated. Even if you're not a DIY'er type, knowing the variables involved can help you "guide" your boot fitter and give you the knowledge to speak more clearly about what you're experiencing when your foot is inside the "system". Even with all of today's available thermo-fitting technologies, the integration of the components is still a strong mix of art and science.

I'm going in for a fitting this Friday (if the shells show up when expected). I'm looking at the new Head Vector RS 130S shells that have GW capability and the new LiquidFit liners. I'm looking for something a little more "accessible" (and warmer) for a full day of skiing that still has the performance I've come to expect. This season's Vector is now built on a 98mm last. The fitter told me that the 25 shell is 96mm, so the fit will be a bit more generous in the forefoot than my 93mm B3 RD shells.

 

[Monster]

I figured out this was my problem after a local bootfiter created the issue and didn't diagnose it. Now that the problem's been dealt with the issue's gone away.

Yes, I think this issue gets missed a lot, which is a shame because it's a fairly easy problem to manage and should, I think, be the starting point of a boot fit. Closely related to Noodler's next to last post.

I'll make a footbed (always as low profile as possible), trim its outline to fit the shell and the liner volume, create the under-support and deck the boot board to mate with the footbed's flat base, then start to work on the shells. I put a temporary shim insert of bontex the same thickness as the liner sole between the footbed and boot board to raise the footbed to its final height, then start locating punches and moving the shell as required. This seems to work well to adjust for what Noodler described. Rarely, I've had to make a footbed taller; mostly it's good with the low-profile design, thin-soled liners, and accurately located punches.

A P/S Media Album of my footbed build is here:

https://www.pugski.com/threads/cuff-alignment.6164/page-3#post-254138

You can't just make a footbed fit a foot sole and call it good. All the parts have to fit with one another and the foot. Depending on the shells and the feet, it can take more or less fussing, but when it's right, it can be kind of miraculous. Nothing beats the look on the face of a skier who has struggled with foot pain when they can ski hard in a comfortable, high-performing boot for the first time.

 

[Monster]

I believe that you set yourself up for improved chances of success if you go in to the process educated. Even if you're not a DIY'er type, knowing the variables involved can help you "guide" your boot fitter and give you the knowledge to speak more clearly about what your experiencing when your foot is inside the "system". Even with all of today's available thermo-fitting technologies, the integration of the components is still a strong mix of art and science.

For sure.