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Wilhelmson

Making fresh tracks
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The average $200++ household around here just hasn't had time to consider the options. Lots of 3,4,5 day passes for sale for these people.
 

TexasStout

Epic Pass + Loveland 4-pack for 2021-2022
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I held off until the 17th, with just a few hours to spare. Went ahead with Epic Local Pass since I was getting a 20% discount. I plan on skiing Breck mostly and some Vail with Epic.

Also plan on buying a season pass to Loveland, instead of the four-packs I've usually gotten. I have a little time yet, for pulling the trigger on that one. Loveland, mid-week, is the safest place for social distancing I can think of and also quickest for me to get to.

Now, if I can get some skiing in before Emperor Polis pulls the plug.
 
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DanoT

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Early season pass prices at Sun Peaks were extended from the usual June 30 deadline to Sept 30. Then when Sun Peaks announced a short while ago that they will sell day tickets online in advance only, I think that caused a spurt in pass sales.

I bought my pass on Sept 14 when they were over 80% sold and they were totally sold out a couple days later. My order number is 4789, so I figure the season pass sales limit was 5,000.

Sun Peaks' busiest day ever was Dec. 24, 2019, with close to 7,000 skiers. (30cm over night and another 15cm during the day; with the previous week having delivered 60cm). It was very busy in the Village but not overcrowded, so if they reduce that record visit number by 2,000 it will be a distancing manageable situation, outdoors walking around or skiing through the Village.
 

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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Early season pass prices at Sun Peaks were extended from the usual June 30 deadline to Sept 30. Then when Sun Peaks announced a short while ago that they will sell day tickets online in advance only, I think that caused a spurt in pass sales.

I bought my pass on Sept 14 when they were over 80% sold and they were totally sold out a couple days later. My order number is 4789, so I figure the season pass sales limit was 5,000.

Sun Peaks' busiest day ever was Dec. 24, 2019, with close to 7,000 skiers. (30cm over night and another 15cm during the day; with the previous week having delivered 60cm). It was very busy in the Village but not overcrowded, so if they reduce that record visit number by 2,000 it will be a distancing manageable situation, outdoors walking around or skiing through the Village.
We love Sun Peaks and even on busy days have never found to be crowded. It is designed to spread folks out across the mountain and pretty much every rental is ski in ski out if you stay at the hill. This could actually be one of the better Covid ski destinations as either the village being skiable, you can ski in and out from all the restaurants there as well as your vacation rental creating a ton of on hill indoor capacity for meals, warming up ... etc.

heard a rumor from a reliable source that the Canadian border would be reopened by January so Canadian ski destinations may be in play this year
 

David Chaus

Beyond Help
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heard a rumor from a reliable source that the Canadian border would be reopened by January so Canadian ski destinations may be in play this year
Don’t start messing with me.......

If that actually happens, I’d be the first in line to cross the border to go to Red Mt, as I can drive there and it’s on my Ikon Pass. Which I did renew (to keep this thread on topic) and I can use at Crystal, as well for as a multiweek clinic at Alpental that I will probably sign up for.

OTOH I did hold off on using my Epic pass credit, one reason being if the border was going to remain closed I wouldn’t be able to visit Whistler this season. I’ve actually been torn between getting a Stevens Select pass (mid-week only) vs a full season pass at Baker (no option for mid-week only), which would be more than an Epic Local pass even without the Covid renewal credit. I guess I got enough use of my Epic Local pass last season to justify it, and didn’t really need the renewal credit to induce me to renew.

Regardless, since my Indy ski school isn’t operating this year, I’m not obligated to go to Stevens and there are other options. Maybe this is just a good season to try something different. Even if Baker costs more, and is a little farther for me to drive (2 hours to parking lot vs 1 3/4 hours), it seems like the year to support a locally owned resort.

Edit: I also just recalled that Whistler still offers Edge cards, so there’s that possibility too if the borders do open.
 

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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Don’t start messing with me.......

If that actually happens, I’d be the first in line to cross the border to go to Red Mt, as I can drive there and it’s on my Ikon Pass. Which I did renew (to keep this thread on topic) and I can use at Crystal, as well for as a multiweek clinic at Alpental that I will probably sign up for.

OTOH I did hold off on using my Epic pass credit, one reason being if the border was going to remain closed I wouldn’t be able to visit Whistler this season. I’ve actually been torn between getting a Stevens Select pass (mid-week only) vs a full season pass at Baker (no option for mid-week only), which would be more than an Epic Local pass even without the Covid renewal credit. I guess I got enough use of my Epic Local pass last season to justify it, and didn’t really need the renewal credit to induce me to renew.

Regardless, since my Indy ski school isn’t operating this year, I’m not obligated to go to Stevens and there are other options. Maybe this is just a good season to try something different. Even if Baker costs more, and is a little farther for me to drive (2 hours to parking lot vs 1 3/4 hours), it seems like the year to support a locally owned resort.
So first off nothing is guaranteed at this point and public sentiment is Canada is pretty negative on reopening the border. That said it is starting to sink in with both government and business leaders that the current Covid situation is not going away anytime soon. Simply put keeping the borders shut made sense initially, but now that we are looking at a new status quo for the potentially the next two plus years, there is active work underway to come up with a different solution that allows the border to reopen in a safe way similar to what has been done in Europe and other parts of the world. This is still a ways out and public opinion is not supportive, but the reality is that they do need to do something as the US is Canada's largest trading partner so you have the economic impact, coupled with the human impact of families like mine being separated by the border closure. I would not hold your breath waiting for the reopening, but would also not be surprised to see it happen with strict safety requirements by January/February time frame.
 

Wasatchman

over the hill
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How so? Looking at this revenue table:

View attachment 110968

It seems to show that Lift revenue (I assume passes and lift tickets) are more than 50% of total revenue.
Good work posting the table and looking into it.

Looking at the percentage of total revenue is only one side of the coin. The other is the actual profit from the various activities, and dining/ski school are enormously profitable versus lift revenue/Mountain ops.

Lift revenue is definitely super important. But one of the innovations Vail brought to the ski industry is to not simply look at maximizing profitability purely looking at lift revenue versus cost of mountain ops but to consider the fact that greater skier numbers also drive more business into ski school, dining, rentals, etc. which are higher margin. And so you can actually drive your overall profit up even if you don't maximize your lift profit because you drive more growth in the other, more profitable areas. So Vail lowered season pass prices via epic pass and still drove higher profit because more total skiers driving higher ancillary revenue.

While Vail does not breakout cost of mountain ops, the sense is that it is only mildly profitable looking at lift revenue to cost. But then the profit from the ancillary services is where they make their bigger profit. But of course you need the lift revenue to cover cost of mountain ops. So when people say Vail really makes their money from the ancillary services, they are talking about profit of that service. But that all falls apart if you don't make enough money on passes to cover the mountain op costs.

Now the interesting thing is Vail worked hard on optimizing this pricing model pre-Covid. But post Covid, tourist numbers will be down and tourists make up a disproportionately higher amount of ancillary revenue than local skers. So this will eat into Vail's profits this year and they'll see how much. And if it is meaningful, Vail will then have to make a call on how quickly tourist numbers come back. If they come to the conclusion that tourist numbers will take a while to recover, Vail could very well decide they need to boost their season pass prices to account for the fact their profits on ancillary items are down too much, especially with less cash cow tourists coming. We will see.
 

Wasatchman

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So first off nothing is guaranteed at this point and public sentiment is Canada is pretty negative on reopening the border. That said it is starting to sink in with both government and business leaders that the current Covid situation is not going away anytime soon. Simply put keeping the borders shut made sense initially, but now that we are looking at a new status quo for the potentially the next two plus years, there is active work underway to come up with a different solution that allows the border to reopen in a safe way similar to what has been done in Europe and other parts of the world. This is still a ways out and public opinion is not supportive, but the reality is that they do need to do something as the US is Canada's largest trading partner so you have the economic impact, coupled with the human impact of families like mine being separated by the border closure. I would not hold your breath waiting for the reopening, but would also not be surprised to see it happen with strict safety requirements by January/February time frame.
New Zealand is facing the same dilemma. But for now the feeling is Covid is pretty much eliminated there. And if they opn the border, well, it won't be. So as painful as it is, i think most in NZ are on board with keeping the border closed to non-residents until a solution (vaccine) is in place. Tourism is a huge part of the NZ economy. But the cost of Covid would be even greater than the tourism hit, especially as greater domestic tourism is a partial offset to no international tourists. And interestingly, most ski areas in NZ are having a record year as greater domestic tourism is actually more than offsetting no international visitors.
 
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dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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New Zealand is facing the same dilemma. But for now the feeling is Covid is pretty much eliminated there. And if they opn the border, well, it won't be. So as painful as it is, i think most in NZ are on board with keeping the border closed to non-residents until a solution (vaccine) is in place.
New Zealand is in a very unique situation where you have pretty much eliminated Covid, Canada however is nowhere close to New Zealand, but is faring better than the US. Regardless of these differences, the real question is can we implement screening and safety protocols at the border in place of outright closures. Inevitably this is something that will need to happen and one could even argue probably should be there regardless of covid so as to prevent the spread of and/or contain the next pandemic. A year ago such an idea would seem ludicrous, but in the current times I think it makes a lot of sense.
 

Wasatchman

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New Zealand is in a very unique situation where you have pretty much eliminated Covid, Canada however is nowhere close to New Zealand, but is faring better than the US. Regardless of these differences, the real question is can we implement screening and safety protocols at the border in place of outright closures. Inevitably this is something that will need to happen and one could even argue probably should be there regardless of covid so as to prevent the spread of and/or contain the next pandemic. A year ago such an idea would seem ludicrous, but in the current times I think it makes a lot of sense.
Yes, very true about NZ being in a unique situation. I don't think you can really do hugely effective border screening procedures unfortunately because of asymptomatic covid carriers. Screening would be better than nothing, but very far away from fully effective. It's why NZ requires a mandatory 14 day quarantine for returning residents. There was one person that somehow got covid a while ago that spread it to 60 people or so. But the situation is under control again as NZ could rapidly determine who was exposed and isolate. But that tells you how difficult it is to contain.

What the Canadian govt has to decide is the cost of greater Covid from international tourists worth the benefit. I'll bet that isn't going to be easy to figure out with confidence.
 

dovski

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Yes, very true about NZ being in a unique situation. I don't think you can really do hugely effective border screening procedures unfortunately because of asymptomatic covid carriers. Screening would be better than nothing, but very far away from fully effective. It's why NZ requires a mandatory 14 day quarantine for returning residents. There was one person that somehow got covid a while ago that spread it to 60 people or so. But the situation is under control again as NZ could rapidly determine who was exposed and isolate. But that tells you how difficult it is to contain.

What the Canadian govt has to decide is the cost of greater Covid from international tourists worth the benefit. I'll bet that isn't going to be easy to figure out with confidence.
With proper testing and screening you should be able to detect asymptomatic covid carriers, but currently we do not test unless there are symptoms and this needs to change. Simply put no system will be perfect, but if we make improvements we can mitigate the risk. Also unlike NZ, Canada has the worlds largest unprotected border and it is with the United states, their two economies are deeply intertwined, so a very different situation. In addition Covid is not under control in Canada which is another factor to consider. Bottom line is that many countries can learn from NZ but are at a stage where the virus has spread so far they cannot replicate NZ success. That means our only choice is to do a better job managing it until we have either a vaccine or herd immunity or like the Spanish flew it runs its course. Keeping the border closed for what could be another 2 years is simply not practical
 

DanoT

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heard a rumor from a reliable source that the Canadian border would be reopened by January so Canadian ski destinations may be in play this year
What I have heard is that Cat and Heli ops are lobbying the Federal government for a border exemption for their customers who will remain relatively isolated at their remote ski lodges. Without the US border open, their are few Cat skiing customers and almost no Heli skiers, at least not enough for Cat and Heli ski ops to even come close to breaking even for the winter.
 

Jilly

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Numbers are on the uptick here, most are people under 30. So the student population. Rumours we hear, close to the border, is next spring.

Right now the snowbirds are all looking for snow tires, winter clothes or accommodations in Vancouver.
 

dovski

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Damn. I hope a vaccine is available earlier than that. So the question becomes guessing how long a vaccine will take to develop and is it better to hold out until then.
The issue is not just when the vaccine is ready, but how long will it take to inoculate everyone and how many anti vaxxers will not participate. The reality is that even with a vaccine you are looking at two plus years to implement and that is assuming we have an effective vaccine that works. Lots of what ifs and variables that have yet to be defined. So with or without a vaccine we still need better safety protocols
 

DanoT

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Keeping the border closed for what could be another 2 years is simply not practical
The Canada-US border is NOT closed to commercial traffic, only tourists.
 

dovski

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Numbers are on the uptick here, so....Most are people under 30. So the student population. Rumours we here close to the border is next spring.

Right now the snowbirds are all looking for snow tires, winter clothes or accommodations in Vancouver.
I think what your saying aligns with public sentiment, but I know for a fact that they are working on re-opening scenarios and protocols as a prolonged closure is not going to prevent the spread of Covid in Canada. The reality is we all need to be doing a better job managing Covid and part of that means managing borders as opposed to just shutting them down.
 

dovski

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The Canada-US border is NOT closed to commercial traffic, only tourists.
No it is not closed to commercial traffic but there are significant limits on that traffic which impacting commerce, just ask my friend who has a factory in Vancouver but lives in Seattle, these limits are having a massive impact. There is also the financial impact on tourism and finally the human impact on families separated by the border. All of these are real concerns that do need to be addressed.
 

Jilly

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Exactly. I'm getting my regular hinge shipments from St. Louis.

I know a truck driver that just quit the US run. He's had enough. Wants to stay close to home. Covid is part, but mostly just wants to stay home.

I'm 1 hour from the border and have friends that are CSBA agents.
 

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