Colorado Arapahoe Basin Is NOW a Free Agent (8/2/19 Update: A-Basin has joined IKON)

[nay]

I doubt Vail is in play at all.

The press release was surely worded carefully to exclude options around ticket packs vs some type of season pass product. But, for the consumer unless you are thinking through all your options, you can wildly overestimate the value you are getting from a season pass.

To my ears it would seem that having no partners, a 3-5 day midweek option with Loveland, and something with Ikon are all still on the table. A-Basin is simply navigating uncharted waters. They have some options they are keeping open, but revenue projections are going to force or free up many decisions that will dramatically influence the skier experience next year.

No way Vail is in play, was just saying that it wouldn’t seem the Vail relationship had to end just to go from unlimited to limited days, given Vail has that model and appears to be willing to pay for it, e.g. Telluride.

To me that puts a dent in the Ikon theory, unless A-Basin is already feeling a pinch along with their ex having already moved on, so Ikon is the only other “I just want to date somebody like you” partner.

I agree that most people have no idea who Vail or Alterra owns. They just know who is on their pass - the marketing is the pass (Epic/Ikon), not the owner. I’ll bet it’s accurate that a lot of people are going to show up at A-Basin with Epic Passes next year.

A-Basin had become a standard resort on the Epic Pass, and if you got there from Epic or Keystone it’s unlikely you are aware of any of this unless you have read the 2019/20 resort list.

Kinda makes you want to show up on opening day .

 

[James]

Abasin is $10 on epic local this year, right?

 

[nay]

Abasin is $10 on epic local this year, right?

Yes. You show up, get rejected, buy a beer at 6th Alley for $10, and then go to Keystone.

 

[Green08]

Yes. You show up, get rejected, buy a beer at 6th Alley for $10, and then go to Keystone.

Openin day suggestion: $20 beers. $5 if you are a season pass holder. One last chance to fleece the Epic Pass crowds.

 

[Green08]

No way Vail is in play, was just saying that it wouldn’t seem the Vail relationship had to end just to go from unlimited to limited days, given Vail has that model and appears to be willing to pay for it, e.g. Telluride.

To me that puts a dent in the Ikon theory, unless A-Basin is already feeling a pinch along with their ex having already moved on, so Ikon is the only other “I just want to date somebody like you” partner.

I agree that most people have no idea who Vail or Alterra owns. They just know who is on their pass - the marketing is the pass (Epic/Ikon), not the owner. I’ll bet it’s accurate that a lot of people are going to show up at A-Basin with Epic Passes next year.

A-Basin had become a standard resort on the Epic Pass, and if you got there from Epic or Keystone it’s unlikely you are aware of any of this unless you have read the 2019/20 resort list.

Kinda makes you want to show up on opening day .

Ikon is the only other big game in town at would bring in money for skier days. A-Basin could see what new features they could negotiate. Options could include only being on the full Ikon Pass, and so reducing Base Pass crowding potential, and they could try and only have a one year commitment. Obviously Ikon would want more, and if cash is the issue A-Basin would not have leverage.

Local partner days, seems like 3 days midweek is the going trade, may not bring in cash for every ticket scanned. However, adding some combination of Monarch, Cooper, Loveland, and Copper could make an A-Basin Pass feel a little more diverse and drive some extra sales.

Powder Alliance would have a similar effect to juice the offering within the A-Basin benefits, without drawing in hordes.

They 8 day warning just has the potential for Ikon being still on the table, as the only justification I can imagine. It may not happen, but to me they are phrasing their press releases so they are covered if by chance it could.

 

[Ken_R]

I am pretty sure that A-Basin Food and Beverage sales (and rentals) will be significantly lower next season. The EPIC Pass (or even the Ikon) provides access to such a high number of skiers that not being a part of it means taking a hit. I dont think A Basin is worth the $400 stand alone pass for most people. Specially the ones that do not ski the advanced and extreme terrain. Most people would need / want to buy another pass as well. How big of a hit are they going to take? Will the experience be improved? (less skiers) That all remains to be seen obviously.

 

[nay]

I think we’ll see A-Basin partner with Powder Alliance, Taos, and a few others with a goal of a pass that looks like Loveland’s.

I don’t disagree that the 8 days is an obvious one day greater than 7, and that 7 looks like Ikon, but all that does is bring Winter Park and Copper skiers instead of Breck and Keystone, plus Ikon destination skiers instead of Epic destination skiers.

I don’t see how that solves the crowding issue - it’s just trading one problem for another given that Winter Park, Copper, Keystone, and Breck are all in the top 10 of annual U.S. skier days. I leave out Vail because nobody who skis Vail skis A-Basin.

I’m just wondering why the extra pass benefits are a big deal. Nobody uses those things, you just ski your home mountain.

 

[jmeb]

Trading to Ikon doesn't necessarily solve the crowding issue. But the number of Ikon pass holders is a fraction the number of Epic passholders. And not that many destinations skiers are going to target it compared to Epic where they can stay and ski at Keystone and catch easy bus up.

What Ikon solves is a big upgrade in the payout per skier day.

The 8 days spells Ikon for me. Which is really too bad.

 

[nay]

I am pretty sure that A-Basin Food and Beverage sales (and rentals) will be significantly lower next season. The EPIC Pass (or even the Ikon) provides access to such a high number of skiers that not being a part of it means taking a hit. I dont think A Basin is worth the $400 stand alone pass for most people. Specially the ones that do not ski the advanced and extreme terrain. Most people would need / want to buy another pass as well. How big of a hit are they going to take? Will the experience be improved? (less skiers) That all remains to be seen obviously.

Sorta the point of A-Basin is that it is an advanced skiers’ mountain. They tried to have it both ways.

It’s only not worth $400 in direct contrast to Epic and Ikon, but it’s hella worth $400 to avoid both of those. I think most people who ski a preferred ski area (as opposed to resort) would gladly pay extra to keep their home mountain from turning into a cluster.

But maybe I’m wrong - people vastly under assess the costs of transport, time, food, etc. and overvalue small differences in pass prices. Just those differences make Loveland free compared to A-Basin, which is a mere 7 miles over the pass, over a 40 day season.

You only have to spend $10 extra per day. Buy a beer for an extra $2, a gallon of gas for the pass and the times you have to go around, higher food prices, the fact that you’ll buy at least one Loveland ticket when the pass is closed along with I-70 on the Summit side, paying the toll lane more because it’s harder to beat traffic, and you’re easily $400 more.

It just isn’t paid at one time, so the buyer doesn’t feel it. Low pass price is what gets you on the hook.

 

[nay]

But the number of Ikon pass holders is a fraction the number of Epic passholders.

This always sounds like small fraction, but is that really true for Denver day trippers? Or is it really big fraction?

 

[jmeb]

This always sounds like small fraction, but is that really true for Denver day trippers? Or is it really big fraction?

Don't have a number for Denver which is probably closer. But overall I believe its a bit less than a 1:3, Ikon:Epic.

 

[Green08]

This always sounds like small fraction, but is that really true for Denver day trippers? Or is it really big fraction?

Roughly 900,000 Epic Passes globally I believe this last year. Ikon data is not public, but references to sales targets, and well surpassing those targets makes me guess about 400,000 Ikon.

Ikon skiers traveling to places like Snowbird and Jackson Hole are also much more likely to use A-Basin than perhaps many Epic Pass skier locations other than Whistler.

Ikon may have less of an impact than Epic however.

No more Keystone shuttle lot makes the on site parking a natural limiting factor. There may only be a max number of skiers if you can get parking.

A-Basin was also the Keystone throw in. The Keystone/A-Basin Pass was the cheapest multi mountain pass in the front range. A-Basin was also part of the Keystone 4 pack. It made it easy for a cheap Keystone skier to maybe spend 1/4 of their days at A-Basin. That would be much harder for Copper or WP with the distance and different drive.

The 7/5 day limit Ikon might bring may also cluster visits. A-Basin would be a natural spot for early or late season visits. But far less exciting for mid season options with weather challenges up or down Loveland Pass.

Ikon is probably not a perfect option. But, I can see the situation as “better” than Vail.

 

[SBrown]

This always sounds like small fraction, but is that really true for Denver day trippers? Or is it really big fraction?

A “ fraction” doesn’t mean much...

 

[Ken_R]

Sorta the point of A-Basin is that it is an advanced skiers’ mountain. They tried to have it both ways.

It’s only not worth $400 in direct contrast to Epic and Ikon, but it’s hella worth $400 to avoid both of those. I think most people who ski a preferred ski area (as opposed to resort) would gladly pay extra to keep their home mountain from turning into a cluster.

But maybe I’m wrong - people vastly under assess the costs of transport, time, food, etc. and overvalue small differences in pass prices. Just those differences make Loveland free compared to A-Basin, which is a mere 7 miles over the pass, over a 40 day season.

You only have to spend $10 extra per day. Buy a beer for an extra $2, a gallon of gas for the pass and the times you have to go around, higher food prices, the fact that you’ll buy at least one Loveland ticket when the pass is closed along with I-70 on the Summit side, paying the toll lane more because it’s harder to beat traffic, and you’re easily $400 more.

It just isn’t paid at one time, so the buyer doesn’t feel it. Low pass price is what gets you on the hook.

Now now nay. We both know Loveland suxs. Its just terrible most days and the lifts are just downright dangerous. There are a LOT of flat areas that get wind scoured. A-Basin is much better and has MUCH nicer food and drinks.

 

[Philpug]

The 8 days spells Ikon for me. Which is really too bad.

Honestly, this will have a lot to do IF Pugski comes back to A-Basin for a 14th year. Being part of Ikon will help us come back.

 

[BTaylor]

Now now nay. We both know Loveland suxs. Its just terrible most days and the lifts are just downright dangerous. There are a LOT of flat areas that get wind scoured. A-Basin is much better and has MUCH nicer food and drinks.

I'm trying to read the tea leaves from A-Basin with respect to their just-announced senior pass pricing for the coming year and relative to Loveland. (I hit senior pass eligibility for Loveland this past year and have found the $99 pass price to be a TERRIFIC value, along with the three free days it includes at multiple other mountains.)

For the 2019/2020 season, Loveland has kept senior pass pricing and benefits at $99. Yay!

For the 2019/2020 season, A-Basin has raised the senior pass pricing to $129 if you buy during the month of April. And beginning May 1, their senior pass jumps to $199.

I guess I though A-Basin would want to be pretty close to Loveland for senior pass pricing for next year. But they're not. I wonder what pricing dynamics might be at play here by A-Basin? Other than wanting the seniors to commit to next season right away...

 

[dbostedo]

Now now nay. We both know Loveland suxs. Its just terrible most days and the lifts are just downright dangerous. There are a LOT of flat areas that get wind scoured. A-Basin is much better and has MUCH nicer food and drinks.

Plus you have to ski through that weird serpentine lift corral on lift 1... and who wants to deal with that?

 

[nay]

A “ fraction” doesn’t mean much...

I think we need a percent. Like what percent of the two million annual skier visits at Winter Park and Copper will get diverted to A-Basin if they join Ikon.

Probably not enough to take up all the parking and make it crowded .

 

[nay]

Plus you have to ski through that weird serpentine lift corral on lift 1... and who wants to deal with that?

I did figure out that it costs less money to drive further while I was in that maze.

 

[PisteOff]

I think the Mountain Collective would be a good fit for A-Basin.