Colorado Arapahoe Basin Impending Free Agency

[coskigirl]

In my opinion, the main reason Ikon would want Abasin is for Colorado passholders to flip from Epic to Ikon.

Agreed.

 

[tball]

Is there any way Alterra compete with Vail for A-basin in terms of an ongoing revenue stream? Those big lines mean big dollars, and Vail has deep pockets.

One significant twist would be if the owners of A-basin wanted to cash out and sell rather than keep it as a cash cow. Presumably, Vail still couldn't buy A-basin because of the antitrust ruling, so Alterra or Powdr would be the most likely buyers. This would probably be the time to sell before renewing the contract with Vail.

A Copper, A-basin, Eldora combo would be a fantastic option for front rangers. It seems unlikely Powdr would fork out the cash or Alterra would let that happen, but who knows.

 

[Jwrags]

How is A-Basin compensated being on the Epic Pass? Do they track skier days that used the Epic Pass and paid per skier day or are they compensated some sort of flat rate for the season or a combination?

 

[Philpug]

How is A-Basin compensated being on the Epic Pass? Do they track skier days that used the Epic Pass and paid per skier day or are they compensated some sort of flat rate for the season or a combination?

I believe it is based on skier days/visits. I heard a rumor of a number but cannot confirm it.

 

[UGASkiDawg]

This is going to be interesting. Over the past vew seasons, they have been doing a lot of market research with the skiers at the mountain. I think the Vail relationshop has been very beneficial for them. Keep in mind too, if they jump ship, I doubt they will be able to use Keystone as their auxiliary parking lot during the busy times.

They won't have those busy time without the Epic hordes...who really only show up when they have no other choice or for the last few weeks of the season.

 

[RuleMiHa]

They won't have those busy time without the Epic hordes...who really only show up when they have no other choice or for the last few weeks of the season.

Last year there were still quite a few people going to A-Basin when Keystone, Breck, and Vail first opened with their pitiful WROD's. The skiing wasn't great but A-Basin at least had three runs open and it was better than what was at the other resorts. A-Basin is Vail's guarantee of some skiing in low snow years. My guess is Alterra is courting Loveland for that same reason.

The question is are the capital improvements of the last few years already paid for, or are they being paid for from future profit. If they are relying on future profit then no way are they breaking up with Vail until the bills are paid.

 

[jmeb]

At this point, I could care less about Abasin because of how busy it is due to its allegiance with the Epic pass. I understand their reason for doing such, but it doesn't make for an experience I like. In that regard, I'd love to see them as an independent. And believe they could (if they so choose) operate in the black much like Loveland. But independent is the least likely option.

I will cry if Loveland goes to Alterra. And that will be when I start spending the majority of my ski days in the backcountry.

 

[raisingarizona]

As much as I love the idea of an ABasin-Loveland pass the idea of everyone with that pass shuttling back and forth over the pass is pretty frightening.

Connect em with a gondola over the pass and a couple of runs on either side.

 

[raisingarizona]

Agreed.

I wonder how much of the Denver market goes outside of the state for ski trips?

I bet it’s not much.

 

[jmeb]

Connect em with a gondola over the pass and a couple of runs on either side.

Loveland Pass is one of the few areas of the state that is currently heavily used backcountry that I wouldn't mind seeing converted into managed terrain. The amount of idiocy that happens on that pass is astounding.

A surface lift from top of Chets (at Loveland) to the saddle.
A HSQ serving the bowl on the eastern side of the pass.
A cat track connecting eastern bowl to Loveland Valley.
A gondola from A-Basin to top of Loveland pass.

It would be a unique ski experience in all of the US.

 

[dbostedo]

Connect em with a gondola over the pass and a couple of runs on either side.

They're not really that close. A lift straight from the bottom of A-Basin to the top of the nearest Loveland lift (chair 6) would be 2.5 miles long, and would in actuality probably have to be longer than that to follow the terrain and stay off the highest ridges.

 

[raisingarizona]

They're not really that close. A lift straight from the bottom of A-Basin to the top of the nearest Loveland lift (chair 6) would be 2.5 miles long, and would in actuality probably have to be longer than that to follow the terrain and stay off the highest ridges.

View attachment 57468

I think I would follow more along the road corridor. That would give the enviro’s less ammunition. Sure, it’s not exactly a little connect but it’s not all that ridiculous to consider either.

 

[dbostedo]

^^^
Not ridiculous technically... I mean, it's not impossible to do... but the cost to connect two small-ish resorts across land not owned by either probably makes it impossible as a practical matter.

Side note - It would be one of the 5 longest lifts in the country, I think. (The list I found has Aspen's Silver Queen at number 5, at about 2.4 miles.)

 

[New2]

What I do not see happening is Vail allowing a current Epic location to switch. They would loose a huge window of early and late season skiing for pass holders, it would be a PR loss, and investments to open early and close later at another resort (where really?) would be costly.

This is a two-edged sword. I'm not sure A-Basin really wants Vail looking for opportunities to compete with them early & late season. Vail could, potentially, just tell passholders to go to Whistler, but if someone really wants to compete for that business in Colorado, we're talking about the other Summit County areas or Loveland.

• Loveland has demonstrated that they can hang with A-Basin for opening. They can do the same for closing easy enough, right now, with no extra infrastructure if someone's going to pay for it. That someone would potentially be Ikon or Epic.
• Copper & Breck are in weaker positions, because they'll need to close off access to the base earlier. But they could roll out some astroturf for uploads/downloads and let folks ski the upper lifts well into the summer if they feel like there's a business need. And astroturf's not very expensive. Minor snowmaking improvements can get either of these hills into the early-opening fray, though, if desired.
• Keystone is the nightmare scenario for a profitable springtime at A-Basin, and where Vail will focus long-term efforts if they decide they want to fight A-Basin. Right now they could probably run Montezuma and Santiago into June most years. Add the Bergman and Independence lifts (which are on Vail's stack of plans anyway), and they can likely outlast A-Basin, all with the comfort of gondola access and a shorter drive.

Yes, I think Vail will sweeten the deal a bit for A-Basin to keep them on board. But I think it's important to remember that the carrot comes with an implied stick, too... "We're willing to pay this extra money to make sure our customers who want early- and late-season snow are satisfied. And if you're not going to help us, then we'll pay that extra money to satisfy them some other way, and if your business model happens to be crushed as a side effect, oh well."

 

[colospgmike]

skied AB today. My first day and kickoff to my 22nd season skiing Summit and Eagle county. I was able to do the Epic veterans pass this year. When that pass was first offered A Basin was not on the list. I placed a call into Vail resorts to complain and a few weeks later the basin was added to the list. LOL-there is no way my call was anything like a tipping point but I wonder how many people called in. Having the Basin on the epic pass is huge early and late season. I would have to think Vail will probably try to renew that relationship. I also think AB could make it as an independent without blinking. Their expansion into Montezuma years ago and this years expansion into Beavers and steep gullies is a big deal. I did like Doug Briggs comments about a combined Loveland/AB pass. For some reason in all my years in Colorado I have never skied Loveland. When AB was not an initial offering on the Epic vets pass I started looking at plan b/c and a individual pass to both Loveland and AB were strong contenders.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Lorenzzo]

With Alterra's war chest of funds and ability to pay what's necessary to acquire assets, motivation for I-70 ownership and established modus, I think they'll buy or at the very least associate with A-Basin and probably build a couple of 30 story hotels.

 

[oswaldr2]

I wonder how much of the Denver market goes outside of the state for ski trips?

I bet it’s not much.

I personally do, I-70 is great and all, but the skiing can be a lot better elsewhere.

 

[New2]

With Alterra's war chest of funds and ability to pay what's necessary to acquire assets, motivation for I-70 ownership and established modus, I think they'll buy or at the very least associate with A-Basin and probably build a couple of 30 story hotels.

There's no private land for development. How many extra Ikon passes would Alterra sell if they added A-Basin? Not many, I suspect. I think Alterra's more likely to try to unload Eldora and maybe Winter Park than to add A-Basin.

 

[Started at 53]

A-Basin or Loveland would entice me to buy an Ikon pass for early and late skiing for SURE!!! I could do a weekday road trip or three

 

[New2]

A-Basin or Loveland would entice me to buy an Ikon pass for early and late skiing for SURE!!! I could do a weekday road trip or three

Don't you get a free Ikon Base pass with your DV season pass? Or did you go with the midweek pass?

And if Copper opened earlier/stayed open later, would that also convince you? Seems like a much more cost-efficient way for Alterra to convince you to get an Ikon pass.