Anyone switched from a 4 buckle overlap to 3-piece boot?

[VladSki]

I switched from an overlap boot to cabrio some 5 yrs ago and never looked back since.

Nordica Speedmachine -> Head Vector -> FT First Chair -> Dalbello Fusion w/Dalbello Kr Pro liners.

There are a few 2-pc boots that would not allow my foot in b/c of my high vol instep. Never a problem with cabrio.

 

[Fuller]

I wanted to get a little background information on 3 piece vs overlap boots and this popped up on the Google: https://theskimonster.com/blog/posts/ski-boot-fitting-flex-width-liners-hike-modes-and-shell-design/

The article is well written and covers the basics which is what I was looking for. Also one of the better designed retail websites I've seen for any industry. Nicely done.

 

[nay]

I think I saw a post where @nay got the QST.

Yep. Here’s my initial review of the QST Pro 130.

https://www.pugski.com/threads/salomon-announces-s-lab-shift-mnc-binding.7361/page-2#post-177045

I think this boot merits a serious look. I have a high instep, and any review you get of this boot is going to warn about high instep. Buckle that second buckle and you’ll know what they mean.

But the shape of the shell is actually anatomical to a low volume foot and a higher instep - just look at the pics and the slope of the roof. The key is how you fit in the ankle pocket and the key there is that wide upper buckle. With the EndoFit tongue, the upper buckle is what seats you and if you don’t get that right, or presumably if your lower leg and ankle doesn’t fit well in the pocket, then everything is off.

I have found you have to lock out hike mode first, then upper buckle, then lower. After that, I have consistent pressure from top of toes to top of shin contact, all easy buckle pressure. And for the first time, I’m not messing with my buckles all day.

This boot is very neutral laterally - it’s pitched as a freeride boot, and it will absolutely ski “neutral”, but it can certainly be skied forward although it’s pretty upright. I wonder if burlier skiers will ever be able to ski these ultralight boots, but I am sold.

Anyway, the integrated internal shell tongue is at least intriguing for your issue on paper. It is a 100mm boot, but the overhead room is very low volume and the toes to shin internal shell tongue could be a fix.

 

[Roundturns]

I've skied only 4 buckle "race" boots since my Salomon SX90's I had for a few seasons back in the early 80's. I was skiing this past week with an old friend who had a pair of Full a Tilt Descendents , I think he said with the 8 flex tongue.
I tried his size 29 boots on (my boots are 26 Raptors) and granted they were way way to big but they did allow me to experience the flex of the tongue and how comfortable the Intuition liner felt.
The boot doesn't fit my foot being that wide, but it gave me a whole different perspective and I can appreciate why people enjoy this type of boot so much if it fits.

 

[otto]

Your foot shape, ankle ROM, and instep tendon, can all be accommodated to solve your fitting issues. The answer could be as easy as purchasing a three piece boot.

If you were a client of mine, I would not throw unknown dollars at purchasing a new boot, until a reasonable fix is found for your current boots.The strategy would be to begin with the possible fixes on the worst of the 2 feet, while trying on possible new fit options on the other foot.

I mentioned that there are positional fixes within the net forward lean of a ski boot that can "quiet" down your tendon, as well as numerous fixes to the tongue, and or a heat moldable liner with room built in to accommodate your bulging tendon. It all starts with finding the right boot fitter. And if all that fails the fallback could be a brand new cabrio style boot with a heat moldable liner.

 

[givethepigeye]

@otto - I'm picking up what you are putting down, totally get it. I've been to 3 pretty well respected fitters (at least that's what if been told) - without me calling them out - who would you propose?

 

[otto]

Where are you located?

 

[givethepigeye]

I live in NC, I travel on planes to ski. UT, WY, CO mostly.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I wanted to get a little background information on 3 piece vs overlap boots and this popped up on the Google: https://theskimonster.com/blog/posts/ski-boot-fitting-flex-width-liners-hike-modes-and-shell-design/
The article is well written and covers the basics which is what I was looking for. Also one of the better designed retail websites I've seen for any industry. Nicely done.

Just wanted to repeat this post of Fuller's. The link he found is indeed the best thing I've read on boots. So well done. It doesn't cover everything, but it does explain most boot characteristics and their variations in depth.

 

[Fuller]

They also have a blog post on waterproof fabrics that is quite good.

 

[Ken_R]

I wanted to get a little background information on 3 piece vs overlap boots and this popped up on the Google: https://theskimonster.com/blog/posts/ski-boot-fitting-flex-width-liners-hike-modes-and-shell-design/

The article is well written and covers the basics which is what I was looking for. Also one of the better designed retail websites I've seen for any industry. Nicely done.

^^^^^^^^^ THIS

Excellent article, a MUST read.

 

[givethepigeye]

So, I never heard back on a recommendation on "who" to see - no matter, I've seen all the "usual" suspects in CO and UT - everyone suggests cutting material away from the tongue - which was done once, made it worse and I ordered replacement linners from Tecnica. I've been down the foam liner path too - ended badly.

Made some adjustments as prescribed by Brent Amesbury (who suggested the 3 piece Krypton 130) and I guess if they don't work - I'll be in that 3 piece next season. Shame, as these Tecnica shells have really been good except for this issue.

 

[nay]

So, I never heard back on a recommendation on "who" to see - no matter, I've seen all the "usual" suspects in CO and UT - everyone suggests cutting material away from the tongue - which was done once, made it worse and I ordered replacement linners from Tecnica. I've been down the foam liner path too - ended badly.

Made some adjustments as prescribed by Brent Amesbury (who suggested the 3 piece Krypton 130) and I guess if they don't work - I'll be in that 3 piece next season. Shame, as these Tecnica shells have really been good except for this issue.

I still think you should put your feet into the QST Pro 130. The EndoFit tongue and buckling over that tongue and around your foot are unique, but it should still feel more like a traditional overlap boot.

Not sure you need to “see” anybody for that to get a sense of how the EndoFit tongue feels. If I was reticent about a cabrio shell, this is a logical evaluation boot since the tongue design is exactly what is different and the work you keep getting is focused on the tongue.

 

[givethepigeye]

If it's on the boot wall when I'm getting new boots - I'll be sure to put it on my feet - my guess is it's too wide - I swim in anything but the narrow side of a 98mm

 

[MAB]

So, I never heard back on a recommendation on "who" to see - no matter, I've seen all the "usual" suspects in CO and UT - everyone suggests cutting material away from the tongue - which was done once, made it worse and I ordered replacement linners from Tecnica. I've been down the foam liner path too - ended badly.

Made some adjustments as prescribed by Brent Amesbury (who suggested the 3 piece Krypton 130) and I guess if they don't work - I'll be in that 3 piece next season. Shame, as these Tecnica shells have really been good except for this issue.

If you ski in Jackson, I would try Bootsie at Teton Boot Lab (if you haven't already). Doesn't sell boots at his shop, which might be a pain if you aren't going to be in town for a while and are looking to buy, but I and others I know have only had great experiences there.

 

[givethepigeye]

^ noted - we stay in the village

 

[nay]

If it's on the boot wall when I'm getting new boots - I'll be sure to put it on my feet - my guess is it's too wide - I swim in anything but the narrow side of a 98mm

It might be too wide, but I think there is more to it. I have a B width foot with no anomalies and it feels to me the same as the Salomon X-Max, although that boot is noted as being on the more generous side of of 98mm.

How it buckles and holds my foot is entirely different from the X-Max, however. The roof fit to shin fit is so perfect for me in the curvature of the tongue, and the buckling system and shell design may make “last” less of a singular variable than we are accustomed to.

What first really tickled my thinking was Salomon’s claim that they had used some of their mountain running shoe tongue design, and I happen to hike in Salomon mountain running shoes. I’ve never had a tongue and lace system that basically begged you to run down the mountain with no forward foot movement and so it struck me as more than marketing. That and the fixed tongue in the shell as I struggle with sideways liner tongue movement due to tibial bow.

The two lower buckles are connected in how they wrap the shell (again, similar to the shoes) and because it isn’t an overlap as you tighten the lower buckles you aren’t collapsing the shell - in a traditional overlap the plastic will start to distort, usually at the overlap contact, and that doesn’t happen here. For me, this works to “pull in the last” around my instep from the side without killing some roominess for the toes. I have some pics in the thread I linked in my post further up that show this, but you can see it here at the second buckle. I have no instep pressure at all - just “snug”.

Now completely contrary to this, I bought my wife the QST Pro 110W. She skis in the X-Max 110W and she was swimming in the QST, but her instep is lower and she has tiny ankles and lucky for me could be a foot model. So it was too roomy.

It’s weird, because the boot reviews are high insteps need more room, and that’s absolutely the correct first impression, but I think high insteps can work once the liner is broken in because the shell will snug around the instep without crushing it and the tongue is perfect.

I am also a one person population sample.

 

[surfandski]

I posted this in another thread about skiing with ankle fusions but I'll post it here as well since the questions regarding how a 2 piece and 3 piece flex seem relevant to this conversation. Thanks

(I'll take out the paging Josh Matta here since I already paged him in the other thread but some of you may have comments on these same questions)
"I've spent a good bit of time reading up everything I can on the Dalbello Kryptons/KR2. It appears that most people are choosing these for their long/smooth flex pattern which is why a lot of people skiing park love them to absorb the big hits. However, I've read several comments from people saying that this Cabrio style isn't good for people with limited ROM because the very nature of them is to start soft in the first part of their flex and then flex well past what an 130 overlap boot would do before hitting the wall. Can you comment on that and your experience with the 3 piece design? The consensus seems to be from calling a ton of Dalbello dealers that they no longer make a stiffer A tongue so it seems that 130-140 is the absolute stiffest I could make a Krypton. I'm not opposed to spending the money to try one out but can you give me more information to back up your earlier comment that the Krypton can be made to flex as stiff as a plug boot? I hope that's the case as I'd love a boot that is both stiffer, and easier to get in and out of, than my Lange. I also love how easy it is to customize the flex on these by swapping out tongues and flex plugs inside the boot. I've read several comments from people saying that those flex plugs in the boot change the flex pattern and take away some of that long, smooth flex in the boot which sounds like it could be beneficial to me. Can you confirm if the Kr2 Pro/Krypton 130 is 130ish with the B tongue BUT without the flex plug in the boot which means adding the flex plug makes it even stiffer or if what they call the 130 has the B tongue and the flex plugs installed to essentially make it as stiff as it can be (short of stumbling upon the fabled unicorn A tongues)."

Do any of you have experience with trying to really stiffen up these cabrio style boots? Or are they just totally the wrong direction for someone with a fused ankle? It would be great if someone made a very stiff version of something that is easier to get into as right now it seems you have to choose between a stiffer/shorter flexing/more difficult ingress and egress 2 piece or a softer/longer flexing but easier to get in 3 piece.

Thanks for your help!

 

[nay]

It would be great if someone made a very stiff version of something that is easier to get into as right now it seems you have to choose between a stiffer/shorter flexing/more difficult ingress and egress 2 piece or a softer/longer flexing but easier to get in 3 piece.

Thanks for your help!

The post above yours from yours truly is that hybrid - it may not be enough boot in a 130 or fit you properly - but it is stupid easy to get in and out of and the integrated EndoFit tongue and booster style cam strap means you have a 2 piece style flex engagement. It’s a freeride oriented boot (upright stance) and is extremely easy to ski in a neutral stance.

It’s also super light for a downhill boot (1600g) and has the S-Lab walk mode, both of which you may find to be bueno in terms of not putting extra pressure on your ankle.

I’m going to stop responding to this thread like a broken record, but if you are looking for that hybrid it’s here off the shelf. I wonder if bigger guys are really ever going to love the move to light and ultralight downhill boots, but it’s been nothing short of nirvana for me.

 

[surfandski]

The post above yours from yours truly is that hybrid - it may not be enough boot in a 130 or fit you properly - but it is stupid easy to get in and out of and the integrated EndoFit tongue and booster style cam strap means you have a 2 piece style flex engagement. It’s a freeride oriented boot (upright stance) and is extremely easy to ski in a neutral stance.

It’s also super light for a downhill boot (1600g) and has the S-Lab walk mode, both of which you may find to be bueno in terms of not putting extra pressure on your ankle.

I’m going to stop responding to this thread like a broken record, but if you are looking for that hybrid it’s here off the shelf. I wonder if bigger guys are really ever going to love the move to light and ultralight downhill boots, but it’s been nothing short of nirvana for me.

Hey Nay, I've followed your progression into the QST and it sounds like an interesting boot but reading the Blister review, I may be wrong but I have the feeling it wouldn't be great for me as I don't think it would be stiff enough for me and the low instep would be an issue on my bad ankle. It does sound like a good option if I was lighter and didn't have this bum ankle. I wonder if they will come out with similar models but heavier and torsionally stiffer. I'd gladly deal with a weight penalty as I tend to like heavier boots, and skis.