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LiquidFeet

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....I think directing pressure towards the outside ski is the only constant amongst all ski instruction systems...

Agree, when skiing on snow, not in it. All fundamentals/essentials have caveats, sure. But despite whatever exceptions people will come up with, directing weight/pressure from outside ski to outside ski is a major thing all skiers need to learn early in their skill-building process.

This does not mean the inside ski has no function, nor that it needs to be light or lifted over the snow. Quite the opposite. Even though the inside ski does not carry much of the load, what one does with it determines the turn shape. It's the brains of the pair.

"Guide ski, ride ski" goes along with "outside ski to outside ski."
 
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slowrider

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This does not mean the inside ski has no function, nor that it needs to be light or lifted over the snow. Quite the opposite. Even though the inside ski does not carry much of the load, what one does with it determines the turn shape. It's the brains of the pair.

So true.
 

Skitechniek

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The inside ski is definitely not the brains, nor does it determines turnshape.

Somewhere I heard the mantra 'outside ski is the rider and inside the decider'. This is just untrue. The outside ski is the rider, decider, captain, general and president. Research show this as well:
My favourite sentence of this piece:
These results suggest a differentiated role played by each foot in alpine skiing turns: the outside foot has an active role in the turning process, while the inside foot may only play a role in stability.

Which is my personal experience as well. I sometimes use inside foot dorsiflexion e.g. to keep me centered and balanced. But whether I ski a-framed or bowlegged, the ski which has most pressure directed to it dictates turnshape, which is the outside.

And how much angle the outside ski has is dictated by the outside leg. I can ski with a huge a-frame and still get proper results on the snow. I can ski with little vertical seperation and still get proper results on snow. Best example of a-framing in wc is Vlhova in slalom, although it has gotten better. Vonn was a huge a-framer too. Gut as well. Hirscher is a-framed as well sometimes, everyone in wc is sometimes, to a certain extend. The exceptions might be Myhrer and Zenhausern. As long as you are balanced on the outside ski it doesn't matter. There is another paper on wc gs skiing as well which has a graph in it that shows the outside ski being at a greater angle than the inside ski throughout the turn. This happens consistently in all turns, which is fine.

This is why discussions about horizontal stance width have become pointless to me. If you are 100% on the outside ski (hypothetically speaking) it makes no difference wherever your inside ski ends up imho. But if you are balanced on the outside ski it is very likely you will end up skiing with 0 horizontal seperation in the turn apex, no matter how wide of a stance you started the turn with.

So in conlusion imho it is irrelevant how wide you stand when you have the ability to stand on one ski and direct pressure to one ski, even under high loads. But I would recommend skiing with no horizontal seperation in the turn apex, also because this stimulates one legged skiing imho (yes I am a believer of one footed skiing).

One legged skiing is in that sense the same as flexion, it gives you options.
 

mdf

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The point is not that you can't get good results by focusing on the outside ski, but rather that focusing on the inside ski improves the chances of a typical skier getting good results.
As you point out, while the outside ski is doing its thing, the inside ski can wind up doing a wide variety of things. But many of them are bad.
If you focus on the inside ski, the outside ski automagically does the right thing.
With milage, the need to focus on either ski decreases and you evolve towards simultaneous tipping. (On hardpack, I ski with 90 to 100% of my weight on the outside ski. )
 

LiquidFeet

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What one does with the inside ski, foot, and leg, how fast one does it, and when in the turn one does it, determines how much edge angle the outside ski develops. Shorten that inside leg, thus lightening pressure on that ski, and you get your edge angle on the outside ski. Yes one can roll that outside knee in all by itself and get extra edge angle along with a resulting A-frame, but you don't want that to be the main motor of your edge angles, do you? What one does with the inside ski (and foot and leg) not only determines the outside's edge angle, but also the amount of pressure available to the outside ski. If the skier keeps pressure on the inside ski, the outside has less to work with. With less pressure, it will bend less, and the turn radius will be larger. When one lightens the inside ski, more pressure goes to the outside ski, it bends more, and the turn radius shrinks.

These two factors, edge angle and pressure for the outside ski, determine the bend and the turn radius. Edge angle, pressure, and thus radius are all three products of what the skier does with the inside ski, foot, and leg. I'd like to see someone with high edge angles and strong pressure on the outside ski NOT have their inside knee up near the chest.

Extra credit: one can pull the inside ski back to add extra pressure to the little toe edge of its tip and this will sharped the turn.

Where the CoM is placed over the outside ski also needs to get some credit. That determines how the outside ski grips, whether it is carving with tail following tip, or if it is brushing across the snow.

Let's give credit where credit is due.
 
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vindibona1

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The main thing about skiing "on one ski" is that with the point of application of force being on the outside ski you can get more force before the torque tips you over to the outside of the turn (given the same centre of mass position).

I'm not sure that I agree fully. Body position and countering forces is the main thing that keep all the elements in balance. I know that a lot of folks ski, attempting to apply pressure to the outside ski as early as possible, thinking that they can add pressure. But I think in doing so (at least without the proper approach) one can end up disturbing some other movements. I'm not sure that I'm a solid proponent of such early pressure transfer- at least not all the time.

I tend to approach pressure (transfer) as somewhat passive for the most part. I don't teach pressure as "weighting", but a combination of naturally occurring forces meeting correct body position. The way I approach pressure to the outside ski is that a turn is nothing more than continuous direction change. When one comes out of a turn we have momentum and some centrifugal force behind our mass as we begin to change direction. We can ALLOW pressure to occur at the spot where momentum, centrifugal force and direction change all meet. We can enhance that with leg extension (or retraction). It meshes perfectly with coming out of a turn semi-retracted to extend the leg(s) into the direction change. But body position in relation to the forces is IMO the critical factor to allow everything to jive when transferring pressure to the outside, not so much when it happens (again, IMO).

Just yesterday I was demonstrating direction change-momentum/CentForces to a couple of students with (modified) Whitepass turns on green/blue level slopes. I was able to demonstrate is that by using the method of pressure transfer described above (direction change + momentum/CF) , I could transfer pressure, to my outside ski very late in the turn (fall line) or earlier, or immediately after completion of the previous turn. I showed that it was a matter of using the energy of the previous turn and proper (lateral) body position, combined with extension and retraction, that I could transfer or balance the pressure from foot to foot with extension and/or flexion movements in conjunction with the existing forces whenever I desired. In truth, there is only so much pressure you can exert on the ski; your weight, combined with the aforementioned forces. But what I see happen all too often is that people who try to go to the outside ski early tend to move their mass away from the general direction of travel and then need compensate with other movements which often present in slower turn initiation. As I mentioned, there are ways to correctly move pressure to the outside ski very early, but it's not always desired.
 
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Skitechniek

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What one does with the inside ski, foot, and leg, how fast one does it, and when in the turn one does it, determines how much edge angle the outside ski developss. Yes one can roll that outside knee in all by itself and get extra edge angle along with an A-frame, but you don't want that to be the main motor of your edge angles, do you? What one does with the inside ski (and foot and leg) determines the amount of pressure available to the outside ski. The outside ski's edge angle and the pressure on it determine the bend in the ski. So pressure and edge angle on the outside ski are a product of what the skier does with the inside ski, foot, and leg. I'd like to see someone with high edge angles and strong pressure on the outside ski without the inside knee being up at the chest.

Pull the inside ski back to add extra pressure to the little toe edge of its tip and you can sharped the turn.

Let's give credit where credit is due.

This is simply untrue. Research shows this, I even posted a link.

And like I said, I can be a-framed and still ski with big angles and still get equal perfomance compared to not being a-framed. In my profile picture I'm a-framed too, really did not matter for my angles. Ever seen Vlhova? Massive a-framer, very outside ski dominant.

And if your inside knee is high up, it means your a-framed and that the inside ski was not tipped on edge a lot. So I don't see how this 'look' supports your claim. I'd say it supports mine. So I don't really understand what you are getting at?

Pull the inside ski back and you can sharpen the turn? Based on what is this true? A ski really doesn't care whether you pull your inside ski back or not, it listens to physics. It listens to the amount of force applied on the ski, which is dictated by edge angle, position of the CoM, amount of newtons, snow consistency etc... If you stay on the whole foot and push the inside leg forward, you will tighten the turn. Because this moves the CoM forward.

It a shame we can't take the discussion to the snow haha. I would love to ski with some of you guys. I'd ski with completely 'messed up technique' (huge a-frame, inside ski way forward) and would love to see who can ski a tighter arc than I can. That would be hilarious. :D

Edit:
Posted the above before I saw you edited your post. Yes I fully agree that lightening the inside ski is very important. But you don't have to tip the ski or as a matter of fact, do anything with it, to lighten the inside ski. I can keep the inside ski very flat/untipped and still lighten it. If you move your upper body to the outside of the turn the inside gets lightened too.

But yes, I also actively try to get the weight off my inside ski. I do this by feeling like I'm lifting the ski off the ground at the apex, but that too hasn't got anything to do with tipping, pulling back or whatever. It is more of a lifting my foot of the ground/get my knee high feeling.
 
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LiquidFeet

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@Skitechniek, so what specifically is "simply untrue?" I'm finding this discussion fun, by the way.

1. Is this untrue: Flexing the new inside leg to get the inside knee up (OK, and out) creates the edge angle on the outside ski.
2. Is this untrue: Removing pressure from the inside ski moves that pressure to the outside ski.
3. Is this untrue: The outside ski's edge angle and the pressure under it determine its bend.
4. Is this untrue: The bend of the outside ski determines the turn radius. (OK, I'll agree that other factors creating drift and/or a rotated steering angle will indeed alter the radius that the bend is trying to determine.) But do you think it's untrue that turn radius is primarily determined by bend in the outside ski, assuming it is the ski the skier is balancing against?
5. You have specifically said that it's untrue that pulling the inside foot/ski back shortens the turn radius. I say it does because I have done it, and because the little toe edge of its tip digs harder into the snow (thus creating drag) when that foot is pulled back. Have you ever tried this?
 
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Skitechniek

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@LiquidFeet
I reacted to you in the order of which you had written everything down. It was a reaction to this:

"What one does with the inside ski, foot, and leg, how fast one does it, and when in the turn one does it, determines how much edge angle the outside ski develops."

This is not true. Like I said, I can ski with a massive a-frame and hardly tip the inside leg and still get good outside ski edge angle. Look at Vlhova, Gut, Vonn, Odermatt.
This is Odermatt, massive a-frame, outside knee is pretty inside. Inside knee is very high and inside ski is not tipped that much.

So yes, 1 is untrue. 2 is very hard to answer, not sure. I'll come back to it later. But my opinion is yes. It's definitely true to a certain degree.
3. Also hard question, but yes edge angle is the biggest influence on pressure and turning radius. How you get that edge angle is irrelevant. Edge angle is edge angle, be it with inside or outside ski tipping. Your ski really does not care whether you tipped it with the inside or outside ski to 45 degrees. It only cares about the 45 degrees.
4. Hard question as well, but I'd say yes. So yes, ski outside ski bend determines radius. But I have a different view of what needs to be done with the inside ski than you have. I believe (and this is opinion, I have no research for this to back it up) that you want to disengage the inside ski as much as possible, to let the outside ski do its work better. So if I find a 45 degrees angle on the outside ski and a floating inside ski with no weight more desirable than a 45 degrees angle on the outside ski with some weight on the outside ski. Because it could be possible that the inside resists the outside ski from turning more. So weight on the inside ski and engaging that ski limits the potential of the outside ski imho.
5. I've done it and I don't feel a different result. I feel a different result when I push the inside leg forward though or when I completely disengage the inside ski. Hence I try the exact opposite of what you are trying when skiing. I am not trying to engage the inside ski, nor trying to get it dig into the snow. I am trying the exact opposite. I'm trying to get that inside ski off the ground and the least engaged to the snow as possible. Sometimes my inside ski is not even carving. Also in wc skiing they don't ski with 2 clean lines all the time, but with one.

For point 2, 4 and 5 look at this clip. Look at what the inside ski does from the fall line/gate onwards. It disengages a lot of the time. It starts skidding and ends up in a reversed pizza slice. Also ends up being far forward compared to the outside a lot. But look how little snow there is coming of the inside. The ski is being disengaged to optimize outside ski performance. That is how I view the subject matter.

Another common misconception is that you need the inside leg to bend in order to get angles. Well:
ANP171113098-1.jpeg.jpg

Pretty straight inside leg. Not a lot of vertical seperation. But angles are easier with more vertical seperation and it makes the chance of booting out so much smaller.

I really look at skiing from a physics point of view and not a biomechanics point of view. There is in no way, shape or form a relationship between biomechanics and performance if the physics is the same. What I mean by that is what I said before. A 45 degrees angle is a 45 degrees angle, 60 km/h is 60 km/h, 800 kilograms of water per cubic meter is 800 kilograms of water etc... you get the point. Those numbers matter. I could also get hip to the ground angles by not even tipping my feet, but by dumping my hip into the turn. Performance wise it will get me the same result, but it will make it more difficult to change direction quickly if I use those 'big movements'. But the ski only cares where it is at (angle, speed, CoM wise etc..), not how it got there.
 
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razie

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Good research article. The results are fairly expected though: a lot less weight on the inside foot than outside and dependent on turn phase and stope steepeness. It is interesting to note that basically throughout the entire turn, only the outside ski pressure increases and decreases, the inside pressure stays fairly constant:

1583701937351.png


I tend to be careful about judging A-frame - women biomechanically tend to have an A0frame and look knocked-kneed more frequently than men, because of anatomical differences. I tend to look more at the overall movement pattern rather than specific ratios and positions - although the A-frame is one of the very recognizable ones, true.

Also, there is generally a bigger difference in SL than in GS. In GS the forces are stronger so the tendency to focus on the big outside ski pressure are bigger too. Also, at the bigger angles customary in GS, biomechanically, there may often be a slight A-frame at max pressure, just to get the hip lower than the inside knee would otherwise allow.

I like that trining run from Marcel. Not looking at the steep stivots, but when he skis cleaner, it's very interesting how strongly he's tipping the inside foot after the gate, yeah, often going in that reversed pizza...
 
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Skitechniek

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@razie
Funny you notice it too with Hirscher. I also noticed Hirscher tipping the inside leg when he passes the gate. Pretty interesting. He comes in slightly a-framed and then goes to equal angles after the gate by tipping the inside.

I personally think it has to do with weight distribution. The more the turn progresses, the more weight goes to the outside, the more symmetrical he becomes.

And yes I know the difference between an a-frame and being knock kneed. ;)
The a-frame look with many woman has to do with q-angle btw, not hip width.
 

Noodler

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This is simply untrue. Research shows this, I even posted a link.

And like I said, I can be a-framed and still ski with big angles and still get equal perfomance compared to not being a-framed. In my profile picture I'm a-framed too, really did not matter for my angles. Ever seen Vlhova? Massive a-framer, very outside ski dominant.

And if your inside knee is high up, it means your a-framed and that the inside ski was not tipped on edge a lot. So I don't see how this 'look' supports your claim. I'd say it supports mine. So I don't really understand what you are getting at?

Pull the inside ski back and you can sharpen the turn? Based on what is this true? A ski really doesn't care whether you pull your inside ski back or not, it listens to physics. It listens to the amount of force applied on the ski, which is dictated by edge angle, position of the CoM, amount of newtons, snow consistency etc... If you stay on the whole foot and push the inside leg forward, you will tighten the turn. Because this moves the CoM forward.

It a shame we can't take the discussion to the snow haha. I would love to ski with some of you guys. I'd ski with completely 'messed up technique' (huge a-frame, inside ski way forward) and would love to see who can ski a tighter arc than I can. That would be hilarious. :D

Edit:
Posted the above before I saw you edited your post. Yes I fully agree that lightening the inside ski is very important. But you don't have to tip the ski or as a matter of fact, do anything with it, to lighten the inside ski. I can keep the inside ski very flat/untipped and still lighten it. If you move your upper body to the outside of the turn the inside gets lightened too.

But yes, I also actively try to get the weight off my inside ski. I do this by feeling like I'm lifting the ski off the ground at the apex, but that too hasn't got anything to do with tipping, pulling back or whatever. It is more of a lifting my foot of the ground/get my knee high feeling.

Well you can "take it to the snow" virtually via video. Post video supporting your position. Better yet, post video of yourself demonstrating what you are stating.
 

razie

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I really look at skiing from a physics point of view and not a biomechanics point of view. There is in no way, shape or form a relationship between biomechanics and performance if the physics is the same. What I mean by that is what I said before. A 45 degrees angle is a 45 degrees angle, 60 km/h is 60 km/h, 800 kilograms of water per cubic meter is 800 kilograms of water etc... you get the point. Those numbers matter. I could also get hip to the ground angles by not even tipping my feet, but by dumping my hip into the turn. Performance wise it will get me the same result, but it will make it more difficult to change direction quickly if I use those 'big movements'. But the ski only cares where it is at (angle, speed, CoM wise etc..), not how it got there.

Indeed, you may get the same performance if measured in one turn's apex let's say, but in a series of turns, you'd be slower edge to edge and with a more imprecise edge engagement - since edge engagement would be driven from the big imprecise muscles and swinging the big mass around, which is harder to control very precisely, especially compared foot tipping. You'd also struggle on ice and steeps etc - that's why hip dumping is usually a technical no-no - that's what I meant that instead of looking at one position, I'm looking at the movement pattern: they may look hippy and A-framed at the apex, but how did they get there matters.

@LiquidFeet
"What one does with the inside ski, foot, and leg, how fast one does it, and when in the turn one does it, determines how much edge angle the outside ski develops."
This is not true.

I think this is true though... a simple example: at the end of the turn - if you're not removing the outside knee out of the way (basically tipping the new inside foot, or untipping the old outside foot, to flatten it and then into the new turn), the new turn will not be nearly as strong/nice, the hips will end up driving the edging and the outside ski cannot tip fast enough, being blocked by the other knee/foot... that's just one way that the inside foot matters. Also, allowing the new inside ski to shuffle ahead too much will make you again fall inside and back, so it is pretty important...

 
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Average Joe

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This is simply untrue. Research shows this, I even posted a link.

And like I said, I can be a-framed and still ski with big angles and still get equal perfomance compared to not being a-framed. In my profile picture I'm a-framed too, really did not matter for my angles. Ever seen Vlhova? Massive a-framer, very outside ski dominant.

And if your inside knee is high up, it means your a-framed and that the inside ski was not tipped on edge a lot. So I don't see how this 'look' supports your claim. I'd say it supports mine. So I don't really understand what you are getting at?
There is a massive difference between the natural stance of a female with Petras stance, and a male with an average stance. Petra's natural stance appears a - framed even when skiing with 70 degree (or more!) edge angles.
Whereas a typical male a-framing is using more inwards hip rotation (often erroneously referred to as "knee drive"). This a -framing uses comparatively low edge angles.
 

vindibona1

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Before I reply to LF's post, look at the Marcel Hirscher video in slow-mo (25% speed) and pause it around the 0:05 second mark. You will notice something that is present in most of his turns, but not all that obvious: His inside ski engages before the outside. It's something that I think will be useful for some to observe. Note that he is carrying such momentum into the direction change. The outside ski will be pressured due to the existing forces. But it should also be observed that he is NOT pressuring the outside ski before initiating the turns. BTW- On Michaela's gold medal run a few years back, she had one bobble, and her body position allowed her inside ski to do the initiation with a later transfer to the outside ski (almost a Whitepass turn) and didn't miss a beat- and probably shaved some time.

What one does with the inside ski, foot, and leg, how fast one does it, and when in the turn one does it, determines how much edge angle the outside ski develops.
I pretty much agree, but think I would modify the statement to say the inside ski *greatly influences* how much edge angle develops on the outside. It isn't universally true. Someone mentioned the A-Frame and I recall, maybe 30 years back, still on straight skis, the "flying wedge" was in vogue. However, having said that, my school of thought (and teaching) is that the inside ski is the "command module" and the outside is the ''enforcer" (think of the Master-Blaster character in the Mad Max movie :decisions:). It should be noted that the "speed" of edging is often dictated by the energy and velocity coming from the previous turn or the speed one is skiing at. You certainly aren't going to go full edge on the bunny slope without developing some speed first.

Shorten that inside leg, thus lightening pressure on that ski, and you get your edge angle on the outside ski.Yes one can roll that outside knee in all by itself and get extra edge angle along with a resulting A-frame, but you don't want that to be the main motor of your edge angles, do you? What one does with the inside ski (and foot and leg) not only determines the outside's edge angle, but also the amount of pressure available to the outside ski. If the skier keeps pressure on the inside ski, the outside has less to work with. With less pressure, it will bend less, and the turn radius will be larger. When one lightens the inside ski, more pressure goes to the outside ski, it bends more, and the turn radius shrinks.

I think few instructors have as good a grasp on the inside ski function as you do. There are a few more things that I'd like to note here. Flexion/extension is important, but it should be noted that inside leg flexion, while it does lighten the pressure on the inside, it mainly functions to transfer more pressure to the outside, creating a more stable platform, thus ALLOWING for more edge angle if desired. But again, it should be noted that how much edge angle largely depends on how much energy is moving toward the outside of the turn.

Extra credit: one can pull the inside ski back to add extra pressure to the little toe edge of its tip and this will sharped the turn. Where the CoM is placed over the outside ski also needs to get some credit. That determines how the outside ski grips, whether it is carving with tail following tip, or if it is brushing across the snow.
You're really hitting it, almost out of the park. But if I might, I would encourage you to think of CoM placement in terms of "lateral body position". In other words, where the CoM is placed between the outside and inside ski at any given moment, not just focusing on the outside. Obviously the CoM has to pass from left to right and back because left and right turns are mirror images of each other. Also, if you think about doing any variation of the Whitepass turn, you won't be thinking about the CoM over the outside, but where it is appropriate in a given moment in time.

PM sent
 
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LiquidFeet

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@LiquidFeet
"What one does with the inside ski, foot, and leg, how fast one does it, and when in the turn one does it, determines how much edge angle the outside ski develops."... This is not true. Like I said, I can ski with a massive a-frame and hardly tip the inside leg and still get good outside ski edge angle....This is Odermatt, massive a-frame, outside knee is pretty inside. Inside knee is very high and inside ski is not tipped that much. So yes, 1 is untrue. ....
Another common misconception is that you need the inside leg to bend in order to get angles....Pretty straight inside leg. Not a lot of vertical seperation. But angles are easier with more vertical seperation and it makes the chance of booting out so much smaller.....
"Not true" is an absolute.
You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Yes, what a skier does with other body parts above the legs impacts edge angle, and what one does with the outside ski, foot, and leg also impacts edge angle. But when we are focusing on the role of skis, feet, and legs in determining what happens in a turn (which is what I was doing), the actions of the inside ski, foot, and leg play a leading role. I'm standing by that assertion. There are exceptions which show up in advanced skiers' technique, sure. But when teaching lower level skiers, which is what my job entails, this inside role needs to be emphasized, or bad things get embedded in my students' skiing later after the lesson.
 
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slowrider

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A framing is not skeletal alignment which is undermining 2 footed skiing.
 

JESinstr

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I am going to take this thread off the rails for a moment .

First, am tired of people continually using racing stills, vids and legend status to support their positions. Racers do what they have to do to get to the finish line in the shortest amount of time, PERIOD. Sure there is a lot to learn and skills to build from the techniques developed in racing but ski racers are a small minority compared to the general skiing population and more importantly, the vast majority of the recreational skiers don't strive for the precision levels that racers, by definition, need to obtain.

Second. As @razie stated I support the cross system fundamental concept of "Directing pressure to the outside ski" with the following comment: Understand that pressure (FORCE) can be in the default form of the skier vs gravity and/or the skier vs centripetal (circular) force which is a force that NEEDS TO BE CREATED and MANAGED through ski edge / surface interaction.
IMO the shortening of the Inside Leg plays a key role in the centripetal generation process.

Finally, isn't it time we all agree on the definition of a ski turn? Wouldn't that make for more rational and hopefully less long winded discussions? I will throw this out and let you chew on it.
In terms of the modern shaped ski, "A SKI TURN is the movement from point A to point B by invoking the arc generating properties of the ski"
 

razie

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Finally, isn't it time we all agree on the definition of a ski turn? Wouldn't that make for more rational and hopefully less long winded discussions? I will throw this out and let you chew on it.
In terms of the modern shaped ski, "A SKI TURN is the movement from point A to point B by invoking the arc generating properties of the ski"

Which turn do we have to agree on? To the left or to the right? :beercheer:
 
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Skitechniek

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Well you can "take it to the snow" virtually via video. Post video supporting your position. Better yet, post video of yourself demonstrating what you are stating.
A-framed:

Bowlegged:

Symmetrical:

EDIT: Forgot I had this one below, only one turn though, this is also quite symmetrical. Pretty dodgy turn mechanics though LOL.

Unfortunately I haven't filmed symmetrical and bowlegged carving. But the first two clips are both a-framed and I have no problem getting decent angles. I can do whatever with the inside leg, cause it is light and disengaged. I can ski bowlegged, symmetrical and a-framed, because I try to keep my inside as light and disengaged as possible, which gives me the option of doing whatever I want with the inside. Doesn't mean I normally do nothing with the inside, but I do the opposite of what has been suggested here.
E.g.: I don't try to press my inside into the snow, but rather am trying to lift it off the snow. And I'm trying to get my inside leg touching the outside leg. So yes I tip the inside foot, but with the inside leg instead of trying to move it towards the snow, I'm trying to move it away from the snow. I get better performance/balance/stability skiing like that.

I'll see if I can shoot some more video next month. Unfortunately I don't have a good camera, so the clips will be short again.

Indeed, you may get the same performance if measured in one turn's apex let's say, but in a series of turns, you'd be slower edge to edge and with a more imprecise edge engagement - since edge engagement would be driven from the big imprecise muscles and swinging the big mass around, which is harder to control very precisely, especially compared foot tipping. You'd also struggle on ice and steeps etc - that's why hip dumping is usually a technical no-no - that's what I meant that instead of looking at one position, I'm looking at the movement pattern: they may look hippy and A-framed at the apex, but how did they get there matters.

I think this is true though... a simple example: at the end of the turn - if you're not removing the outside knee out of the way (basically tipping the new inside foot, or untipping the old outside foot, to flatten it and then into the new turn), the new turn will not be nearly as strong/nice, the hips will end up driving the edging and the outside ski cannot tip fast enough, being blocked by the other knee/foot... that's just one way that the inside foot matters. Also, allowing the new inside ski to shuffle ahead too much will make you again fall inside and back, so it is pretty important...


Fully agree. In the end turn mechanics do matter in a series of turns. But I do not believe inside ski tipping is some magic move that will give you sound turn mechanics all of a sudden. I've tried countless of things in the gates and this does not make you faster all of a sudden, that is my experience at least.

I guess we have different believes about the inside though. If I don't get the inside out of the way, the outside will simply take it with it. That being said, I believe in independent leg action. I can tip the inside leg, and still keep the outside untipped. I can also tip the outside leg and keep the inside untipped. So I tip both. But if you tip the outside a lot without inside knee drive, or being in the backseat, the inside will always automatically follow. If I tip the inside and I am balanced on the outside, I can tip the inside as much as I want, but if I don't tip the outside as well, it will remain flat. This might sound stupid, but you can't tip the outside without tipping the outside. It's not automagically going to tip if you tip the inside. However: a ski on which you are balanced can tip a ski on which you are not balanced. A ski on which you are not balanced cannot tip a ski on which you are balanced. Translated this means that the ski on which you are balanced is the decider and I choose to balance on the outside and only use the inside to improve balance on the outside.

"Not true" is an absolute.
You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Yes, what a skier does with other body parts above the legs impacts edge angle, and what one does with the outside ski, foot, and leg also impacts edge angle. But when we are focusing on the role of skis, feet, and legs in determining what happens in a turn (which is what I was doing), the actions of the inside ski, foot, and leg play a leading role. I'm standing by that assertion. There are exceptions which show up in advanced skiers' technique, sure. But when teaching lower level skiers, which is what my job entails, this inside role needs to be emphasized, or bad things get embedded in my students' skiing later after the lesson.

Agree to disagree it is! We all have our own ideas, that is the beauty of the sport! :D
 
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