Anyone here always ski on one foot like Lito Flores?

[Josh Matta]

But that's the whole point of a forum/discussion. When you see wrong info being thrown around, counter it with good arguments as to why they're wrong!

sure but the loudest voices and a majority doesnt mean something is technically correct. Remember it is hard to win an argument against someone who is intelligent, but its impossible to win one against a stupid person.

 

[geepers]

Belief and reality are quite often different.

A ski with more pressure being directed towards it will bend more. 2 semi bent skis will never turn as sharp as one, as bent as possible ski. The best way to see this is on really straight, really long, stiff skis like a Cochise or El capo. The effect will be less pronounced on tighter, softer skis but it will still be there.

Editing my original reply...

What is a semi-bent ski? Is that one where the tip and tail are in the snow but the middle of the ski is in the air? If not that, then what?

 

[geepers]

Look around and you'll see that it's far from the case that just about anyone can do it. If you ARE seeing that anyone can do it, then you are not skiing anywhere I have ever skied.

As for the blocks test, that isn't anything like what happens in a carved turn. The ski is not flat; it's on edge. In this situation it's not your "weight" - i.e., gravity acting on your mass - that pushes the ski into reverse camber; it's the force you are able to muster against the ski. The skier's mass is a factor in that force but not the only one. Now consider that in a really good carved turn the decambering is happening even before the skis are pointed down the fall line (i.e., when the skier is "upside down" - see first frame of second appended Ron LeMaster photo). Now the force vectors get really complicated, because early in the turn you're working against gravity and later in the turn you're working with it.

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Hmmm... my skis give significant deflection with 56lbs. I weigh 165lb in ski gear so I'd have to be turning with less force than 1/3G not to be be able to get the ski to bend significantly.

BTW that doesn't mean it's easy to get the technique right to really rip carved turns!! Getting the lean angles and maintaining balance through the turn is non-trivial.

One problem with that experiment right or wrong is that it leads to a flat ski close to the boot and a curved ski close to the tips. To carve a smooth arc the entire ski must be bent in an arc. If you place the ski not on blocks, but instead on a curved surface you'll find that it takes a substantial amount of pressure to curve the ski close to the boot. Some bindings are designed to allow the ski to bend under the boot. There's a lot more energy stored in the ski than some people think, because of this.

Oh, I don't know....we're skiing, not figure skating. Don't believe that a short flat spot near the boot is going to do anything significant to the overall shape of the carved turns. Maybe displace a small amount of extra snow in the track.

Not sure what you mean 'extra energy stored in the ski'? If we used a string to turn the ski into a bow would it impart more energy to an arrow? (insert archery emijo)

Look at the width of the tracks. The sharper turn is much wider. This suggests to me that the ski wasn't able to be pushed into the shape of a circle, because there wasn't enough pressure.

More force will leave more of a mark in the snow. Further, that skier would be using a narrow ski so boot/binding may be making a mark. Some-one can try it on snow and see.

 

[James]

Balance on your outside ski.
Don't worry about weight % on the inside, just get it to track.

Slalom skiers 100% on the outside ski? Not so much:

 

[mdf]

To bend more would require the tip and tail to rise up out of the snow. Or the snow to be compressed/moved out of the way by the middle of the ski

Maybe on glare ice. On snow, even firm snow, the tip and tail dig in not rise up. And then the snow presses on them to move them relative to the rest of the ski, by bending it. The traditional formula (in the classical spreadsheet from Physicsman, for example) is a simplification representing the intersection of a cylinder and a plane.

 

[SSSdave]

I have Lito's 1986 BOS best seller so tracked down the part on page 33 below where he talks about being on one foot because without actually paying attention to what he related, most will have the wrong impression of what the uphill ski is actually doing because it looks like both skis are in the snow.

Like most skiers---you probably shift your weight to the outside ski at the start of each turn. And like most skiers--either through laziness, imperfect balance, or simply because no one ever showed you otherwise--you then let a lot of your body weight fall back onto the outside ski. So you actually make most of the turn on both feet. No more! I want you to get completely onto that outside ski and stay there, balanced it for the entire turn. No kidding. I'm talking about developing a style of one-footed skiing. A surprising suggestion to many, I realize, since the fact that experts make every turn virtually on one foot must surely be one of the best-kept secrets of modern skiing.

Admittedly, it doesn't look as though we are skiing on one foot. When you watch a hot skier--instructor, coach, racer, whatever--you see two parallel skis carving the arc of each turn. What you don't see is that the inside ski of the turn is completely weightless, floating along the snow next to the outside ski, which is really carrying the skier. Often the light inside ski is lifted a tad, a smidgen, a centimeter or so off the snow. But generally no higher since that ski won't get any lighter even if its hoisted a visible foot or so off the snow. Lifting the inside ski visibly off the snow takes extra effort and can only compromise your balance.

The difficult habit to learn that is not addressed in the above is how to tuck the knee and leg of the uphill unweighted ski next to and slightly advanced to the weighted ski. To do so to the point that is automatic without thinking requires hours and days of practice and practice. In any case advanced skiers do weight their uphill ski to limited extents at times so the fully on one ski action is not cast in stone. For instance in powder, in bumps, in crud, there is more to do with both skis. Even on groomed slopes the uphill ski can help smooth out and be ready to add stability when the weighted edged downhill ski slips out of its perfect groove due to snow slope irregularities like icy hard pack spots. And it can do so most readily if it is tracking unweighted close to the weighted ski so any weighting it adds will keep the same track.

 

[mdf]

Slalom skiers 100% on the outside ski? Not so much:

Well, they have different problems... once the outside ski has so much load that something gives (snow surface shearing, ski bending so much that it turns too quickly, other problems I can't even imagine) the inside ski has to help. I suspect it is analogous to why the rest of us need to put weight on both skis in powder.

But most of us mere mortals have trouble getting enough weight on our outside ski to make it perform on hard snow, not getting too much.

(Personally, I like just enough pressure on my inside ski to keep it from wandering off on its own. I'm not sure if that is habit or the "right" answer. I am convinced that in normal circumstances the right answer is at least "most" and might be "almost all.")

 

[skier]

Are you saying that as you lift the inside ski (or outside for that matter) the turn instantly tightens for you?

This definitely happens for me.

 

[geepers]

Maybe on glare ice. On snow, even firm snow, the tip and tail dig in not rise up. And then the snow presses on them to move them relative to the rest of the ski, by bending it. The traditional formula (in the classical spreadsheet from Physicsman, for example) is a simplification representing the intersection of a cylinder and a plane.

I sincerely hope you did not think that I was postulating that the tip and tail would rise up out of the snow. That will not happen, not even on glare ice, there being no force to do such a thing.

Can't see the depth the tip penetrates being an issue either. If the tip makes, say, a 1cm furrow then the rest of the edge will follow in that furrow. So same situation as a ski on a very hard surface but now 1cm lower.

Elsewhere Jurij has posted the equation of sidecut:
w=x+ 2(2r sin⁡(α) sin⁡(l/2πr))
α – angualtion angle (0- flat on the ground)
x – width of the ski at centerpoint
w – width of the ski
l – distance from centerpoint of the ski to the point on the edge of the ski
r – radius of a turn

I do not know if he means this is just the equation he worked out for Elan or if it is still used today.



At which point we have wandered so far from the OP may need a GPS to get back.

 

[James]

Are you saying that as you lift the inside ski (or outside for that matter) the turn instantly tightens for you?

The radius tightens as the edge angle of the turn producing ski increases. If this is the outside ski, not shortening the inside leg will quickly have you mostly then completely on the inside ski with the outside off the snow. Presumably lifting the inside will have your inclination, (com tilted to the inside), increase. Thus increasing edge angle. "Presumably" because there's all sorts of funny things one can do that have a different effect. (And you might not be turning) You have to allow your body to fall inside the turn.

But most of us mere mortals have trouble getting enough weight on our outside ski to make it perform on hard snow, not getting too much.

The majority of intermediate skiers lean inside and end up on their inside ski. This leaning goes with twisting of the body to turn.

Hi performance skiers, eg racers free skiing, will often often incline to a very high degree to start the turn before any signisficant force is coming back from the skis. This is a huge commitment, and relies on tons of experience and ability to handle the forces about to come when the skis hook up and redirect the body.
High performance skiers are committed to the arc. Their muscles are used to handle the forces created. Most skiers are muscling a direction change. Their muscles are used to push the snow away.

If one simply uses the line they ski to control their speed, and glide through the turns, you'll be way ahead.

 

[Tip Nippley]

Balance on your outside ski.
Don't worry about weight % on the inside, just get it to track.

Slalom skiers 100% on the outside ski? Not so much:

 

[geepers]

What is balanced skiing?

Did anyone answer your follow-up question?

There's a post elsewhere in pugski I really liked. "Skiing is an -ing sport." As in balanc-ing, flex-ing, extend-ing. These are not one time activities and then we're sweet forever.

 

[Tip Nippley]

One of the 5 PSIA Fundamentals of Skiing is to "regulate the magnitude of pressure". If you watch the video above you'll clearly see Hirscher's inside leg flexing up and down. You truly need to FEEL the ski / snow contact and pressure created from that contact of BOTH skis in the snow to regulate pressure.

Many folks think of a turn as the letter C vs.an S. To be fluid from one turn to the next, no matter how you visualize it, requires TRANSFERING pressure from outside ski to outside ski. Ask yourself how you transfer pressure, where you transfer and why you are transferring at that point in time (gate, intent to rip, scared, bad tune, good snow, etc)? As soon as Hirscher gets his skis moving in the direction he wants he does everything to ANTICIPATE the next apex. To get there fast he needs to transfer pressure fast. Some turns dont require a fast transfer of pressure so it becomes more of a progressive transfer, which entails some middle ground of pressure while in transfer.

Also, A thought I had today was that in the old straight ski days many folks A framed as a backup for the outside ski failing. New skis are not infallible as others have mentioned due to snow conditions, etc. HOWEVER, I believe in the old days the A frame was an "after the fact" CYA sorta thing. The newer skis now allow us to be "proactive" in our caution by tipping the old outside ski first, meaning we might not fully commit to the new outside ski until we are confident in our position over our skis, snow and how they feel under our feet, versus the older method of fully committing until it failed. The skis hold much better now and are more "trust worthy". Don't take this too literally though, we still utilize the inside ski when all else fails on the outside.

 

[Rod9301]

One of the 5 PSIA Fundamentals of Skiing is to "regulate the magnitude of pressure". If you watch the video above you'll clearly see Hirscher's inside leg flexing up and down. You truly need to FEEL the ski / snow contact and pressure created from that contact of BOTH skis in the snow to regulate pressure.

Many folks think of a turn as the letter C vs.an S. To be fluid from one turn to the next, no matter how you visualize it, requires TRANSFERING pressure from outside ski to outside ski. Ask yourself how you transfer pressure, where you transfer and why you are transferring at that point in time (gate, intent to rip, scared, bad tune, good snow, etc)? As soon as Hirscher gets his skis moving in the direction he wants he does everything to ANTICIPATE the next apex. To get there fast he needs to transfer pressure fast. Some turns dont require a fast transfer of pressure so it becomes more of a progressive transfer, which entails some middle ground of pressure while in transfer.

Also, A thought I had today was that in the old straight ski days many folks A framed as a backup for the outside ski failing. New skis are not infallible as others have mentioned due to snow conditions, etc. HOWEVER, I believe in the old days the A frame was an "after the fact" CYA sorta thing. The newer skis now allow us to be "proactive" in our caution by tipping the old outside ski first, meaning we might not fully commit to the new outside ski until we are confident in our position over our skis, snow and how they feel under our feet, versus the older method of fully committing until it failed. The skis hold much better now and are more "trust worthy". Don't take this too literally though, we still utilize the inside ski when all else fails on the outside.

If you tup the old outside ski first, which you should, you are instantly transferring weight to the new outside ski

 

[Tip Nippley]

If you tup the old outside ski first, which you should, you are instantly transferring weight to the new outside ski

In a perfect world I would prefer something closer to simultaneous tipping. It can also be progressive and can also be "undone" by untipping and not committing to the new turn (think dodging an out of control rider or pinching the the line incorrectly and having to double turn

 

[geepers]

If you tup the old outside ski first, which you should, you are instantly transferring weight to the new outside ski

Instantly?

 

[Tip Nippley]

Instantly?

I guess i wasnt clear. I wasnt talking about how to do it correctly, I was talking about the real world where sometimes we have to cheat. (that was not instantaneous pressure to the outside ski in the first turn but the inside ski was highly tipped and still pressured until he could prep for apex and trust his outside ski ) It can also be done where only the best of eyes can spot it, unlike hirshers recovery move0

 

[Carl Kuck]

*shrug* I usually ski mostly on one ski, but there's got to be some weight/pressure on the other ski to keep it tracking (assuming it's still on the snow) as seen here:


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When I'm on the simulator practicing, I spend a fair amount of time doing the one ski exercise in which the other ski is actually up in the air.

BTW - these are not my Stöckli's, I had my Head WCR i.Speed Pros out that day, @Lorenzzo let me take these for a run. IMO not a whole lot of difference between them, both were tons of fun!

 

[Rod9301]

*shrug* I usually ski mostly on one ski, but there's got to be some weight/pressure on the other ski to keep it tracking (assuming it's still on the snow) as seen here:
If you are the guy in front, you have too much weight on the inside ski. Look at how the skis diverge.

View media item 2309
When I'm on the simulator practicing, I spend a fair amount of time doing the one ski exercise in which the other ski is actually up in the air.

BTW - these are not my Stöckli's, I had my Head WCR i.Speed Pros out that day, @Lorenzzo let me take these for a run. IMO not a whole lot of difference between them, both were tons of fun!

 

[Josh Matta]

ummm too much balance on your inside ski in the picture is causing quite a bit of divergence........also pretty soft alignment.