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Any issues with Atomic Hawx Ultra?

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johnnyvw

johnnyvw

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When you say the side ones are torx, are they on the inside? On the outside of my boots there is a disk with two holes on opposite sides, looks like it's made for a pin spanner type of tool. That's why I mentioned a special tool.
Keep in mind I have the 2018 110 flex. Maybe there is a difference in models/years?

Currently there is no top screw in the back. I will have to check to see about a spacer. Sounds like a real PIA to change the lean. I definitely felt the intuition liner stiffened the flex, it was noticable. I have the original wrap style which has a high density foam...one of the reasons I like them. Also, my older boots have booster straps, and I know they affect the flex, so I may have to get a pair of them to try.

No change in bindings, skiing the same skis/bindings I have had for almost 10 years (Fischer AMC 79). I had to move the bindings about 2 mm to compensate for the shorter BSL on the Hawx.

One other thing I did notice is that the bottom of the boots are much higher on the Hawx, so the footbed is probably 5-6 mm higher, at least.

And my wife wonders why I waited so long to get new boots.... LOL
 

GregK

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Sorry, I didn't know you had the 110. The 110/120 I didn't think had adjustable ankle bolts for cant and when I looked online, they are only torx bolts on the 130 and seem fixed on the 110 and 120. I bet they are not meant to be adjusted on the ankle on the 110/120, so are tightened at the factory with a specific tool and aren't user adjustable. You just use heel shims to cant on those boots if needed.

On the 110, adding a second bolt on the back would increase stiffness to 120 approximately but that is the opposite of where you want to go by the sounds of it. I'd still check the tightness of the back bolt with your 4mm allen key and maybe use the new liner for a few days as it should break in and soften a bit.

Just looked up those bindings and those DEFINITELY would cause some ramp delta issues as the heel is much higher than the toe piece and they are high overall as they are a track binding. Your old boots probably had less forward lean on them, so the extra lean from the bindings didn't put you into the "unbalanced/back seat danger zone" like the new ones do. I for sure wouldn't adjust forward lean on the boots as the second you switch to new flatter bindings, you would be not forward enough I bet. Could maybe bring the bindings to a shop to see if the toe pieces could be shimmed up a pit to make them more even I guess. Honestly, you'd be shocked at the performance difference of newer bindings and skis that would also not put you in the backseat like your current bindings do. Even if you just switched the bindings out to current ones, it would be night and day better but I'm sure the skis are kinda passed their prime too.
 

ted

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Not sure about the 100, but the 110 is adjustable for "cant", actually upper cuff angle adjustment. Atomic has a pin spanner tool that goes into the two pinholes to rotate the rivets. Loosening the back bolt will make the angle adjustment much easier. The 130 has a cuff bolt not a rivet so the cuff can actually be removed, on the lower flexes it is riveted but rivet can be rotated to change the cuff angle.
 
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johnnyvw

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The cant is definitely adjustable, maybe they went with something only a shop would have the tool for. One of them is actually rotated a bit off of "zero", so at minimum I want to zero that one out, and then try to adjust a bit to mimic the setting of my old boots (which I know will be trial and error).

I definitely don't want to go towards stiffer. So I may have to switch between liners to see if the stiffening effect of the intuitions is part (or all) of the problem). Maybe try loosening the strap around the top a bit (I hesitate to call it a booster strap, since I have "real" Booster straps on my old boots LOL)

I don't know if the toepieces can be shimmed, since they are a "system" on a track. But, I also have a pair of Motive 95s with Attack 13 bindings, and I did not notice any difference between skiing the two sets of skis with my old boots (they are demos, purchased from Dawgcatching). I was planning on skiing those these weekend, but weather may not cooperate. In my way of thinking, since these other skis/bindings worked fine with the old boots, I will not be surprised if I have the same issue on the Motives.

I very much appreciate your input on this, it's given me some ideas to check and try. My biggest problem is I only have maybe 2 or 3 days on the snow from now until the Utah gathering, so I may end up using my old boots for that trip and dealing with the new ones when I get home. I was planning on having much more slope time by now, but life gets in the way sometimes. And before I start modifying the shells in any way, I will probably go try on other boots (my local shop has only 4 brands they carry, down from 8 last year). Since I will most likely go with Intuition liners anyway, as long as the fit is close to being good the molding of the Intuitions will likely fix any minor issues. And it sounds like I may need to go with a softer flexing boot if the stiffening effect of the liners is part of the backseat problem.
 

GregK

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Atomic must design the cant on the models lower than the 130 so people DON'T try and change cant on their own and cause issues I guess. Not a crazy idea to force you to go to an expert(with the tool) for that.

Actually you are better off than you think if you have Motive 95s with Attack 13s as they for sure will be better(more flat in level) than the other older bindings would be with either boot. As I said earlier, the new boots must JUST put you over the tipping point of unbalanced that the old boots were just below. So you should use the new boots with the Motive 95s and should be fine even with the new liners. I bet you just haven't had enough ski time switching with the new boots between the old skis and Motive 95s to notice you're probably okay with the Motive 95 and have that back seat feeling just on the older AMC 79 skis and bindings. More of an forward lean issue than flex issue so don't think the boots flex needsto be changed at all.

It took me awhile to notice a similar ramp issue with my old boots and different bindings. Finally had the exact same ski(different lengths though) with different bindings and couldn't figure out why they skied so differently and often felt backseat and out of control only on the one pair. Sure enough the ramp angle on my older Fisher/Tyrolia bindings was much greater, tipping me forward into the "unbalanced point" and a switch to more current and flatter Attack 13s(which I had on the other pair) solved it. Now I run nothing but Attack 13s on all my skis and there is no issues switching skis.
 
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GregK

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A test to try at home to see balance issues is to do a squat test. This is how I discovered for sure the bindings causing my issues.
These photos where reposted on Ski Diva that were from Ron LeMaster's site who is a coach, instructor and ski technique guru.

With your new ski boots on and on a flat surface and your hands stretched out, squat naturally down and notice your armpit vs your knee location and how balanced you feel while going up and down into the squat. A perfect forward lean is when your armpit area lines up with your knee area. Then buckle into the Motive 95 skis and then squat down to see if there is any difference.(hopefully there shouldn't be much) Then try the squat test with the older skis and bindings and notice arm pit vs knee location and how stable/in balance you feel. I'm betting your armpits will be forward of the knee with the old skis/bindings on i.e.-too much forward lean.

IMG_5997.jpg IMG_5998.jpg
 

ted

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To me binding heel toe differential is a critical factor. If I'm heel high it completely messes my balance.

I don't know if I'm oversensitive or if others have as much difficulty and don't realize the problem. Ex riding up a chair with a stranger and he/she says my Husband/Wife is a great athlete but could never learn to ski and gave up.
Pretty sure these are cases of the boot/binding putting the person out of balance.

Too bad the industry has done nothing to correct this problem with the casual/beginning skier.
 
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johnnyvw

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Well, I certainly hope I get a different feel with the Motives. And I'll try that squat test at home, thanks for the idea. Interestingly, the boots the guys in the pictures are wearing look like Tecnicas from about the time frame of my boots. Probably the upper level boots, but that was when they were the burnt range color with red buckles (circa 2001)
And I'll check the heights of the ski/bindings on both pair, to see if I find anything interesting about that.
 
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johnnyvw

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Ok, so here is what I have found:
I had my wife take pictures of me in the squatting position as per your attachments from Ron LaMasters. The new boots might have me very slightly ahead of the position I get to in my old boots, but I had to use a straight edge to see the difference. I also noticed the Hawx are a little taller, which may contribute to the "back seat" feeling I got.
On the bindings, I measured from where the boot rests against the binding to the bottom of the ski, using a dial caliper. There is very little difference in ramp measured that way, with the system binding have about 1/2 mm more differential than the Attacks, which works out to less than 2 tenths of a degree. I have a hard time believing that's enough to make a big difference.
Now on the boots, I found that the screw in the back is a T30 torx. The plate that is held on by that screw has serrations on the bottom side that engage in serration in the boot. This plate is basically just a stop for rearward travel of the cuff when everything is not locked down with the screw. Interestingly, I can easily move it to the 13 degree position, but there is interference between the lug that the T-nut inside the boot goes into and the hole in the cuff, so I would have to grind some material away to allow the cuff to tilt forward to get the 17 degrees. But since that's probably the opposite direction from where I need to go, I'm not going to bother with that.

So some interesting findings. My plan for the next outing is to try the boots set at 13 degrees (it's very easy to change, so I'll do a comparison) and also try swapping out both liners to see what difference that makes since the Intuitions seems to stiffen the flex.
 

GregK

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Good plan of attack(not the bindings!) I think.

Maybe the fact of higher height of the boot might indeed be the issue especially if the Attacks you have are demo ones too? The issue of binding ramp is measured from the top of the toe and heel measured to the top of the ski not the bottom of the ski as the skis might be of different/varying heights. You take pics when you were in the different skis too? Curious if that changes.

I’m a HUGE hater of demo bindings due to their extra weight and stand height. The regular Attack 13 are 17mm off the ski on the toe boot resting area and about 20mm on the heel resting area. I’m sure both your bindings are over 10-15mm higher than that if they are both demos.(combined with a pound heavier per pair)

So demo type bindings on both skis with the addition of the new higher heel height with a touch more forward lean might be the issue. Easier to grab stuff off of higher shelves though....lol

Moving to 13 degrees might get you to a better balance point so I agree that’s the first thing to try with the new liners. Next upgrade would be switching to regular Attack 13 Bindings which would lower you and put you flat, lighter, more responsive combo. If the lean doesn’t help, I’d switch bindings before boots honestly.
 
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johnnyvw

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Actually, the rails the attacks fit into to make them demos are around 2 mm thick, so not than much has been added to the height (as a reference, the total thickness from the bottom of the ski to the top of the AFD was 32.5 mm) For me a bigger issue was the rail creates a bit of "slop" at the toepiece, but I really haven't felt that that affects how well the ski works. Of course, If I mounted them direct, maybe they would be even better! LOL
It would be difficult to measure the height from the top of the ski on the AMCs, due to the mounting rail and also the top of the ski is a bit scalloped...I felt measuring to the bottom surface would give a better idea of what would happen if I was on the skis on a flat surface, which would have happened if I did stand in both of them in the boots. That's why I didn't bother with that excercise.
My plan is to get out Saturday, as long as the predicted rain doesn't move in earlier than the current forecast. I'll update as soon as I have more slope time. Again, the input is greatly appreciated.
 
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johnnyvw

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Well, by a stroke of luck (?) I found a nice pair of old Tecnicas exactly like my old boots, but in much nicer condition. So at least maybe I've bought myself a little time to work out the kinks with the Hawx. I must say, they have been a bit disappointing. But, hope springs eternal!
 
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johnnyvw

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Decreasing the forward angle helped, but things are still not where I need them to be. The stock liner is definitely a no-go due to the "rib" on the edges of the tongue, that starts rubbing be raw after about 2 hours. Went back and tried my old boots; they definitely feel better on the slopes to me. Not sure where to go with these but most likely I'll take them back to the shop and see what else they have that could work. Sigh...I had such high hopes, but I guess it shows that even great fit in the shop may not work once you actually try skiing in them.
 

Mikey

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Decreasing the forward angle helped, but things are still not where I need them to be. The stock liner is definitely a no-go due to the "rib" on the edges of the tongue, that starts rubbing be raw after about 2 hours. Went back and tried my old boots; they definitely feel better on the slopes to me. Not sure where to go with these but most likely I'll take them back to the shop and see what else they have that could work. Sigh...I had such high hopes, but I guess it shows that even great fit in the shop may not work once you actually try skiing in them.

I don't have the Ultras, I have the Primes. I wish the shop would have Ultra 120's, but as it turns out, for the mistake I made the Primes were the best.

1. I can confirm the rib on the edges of the tongue is a big source of irritation (have same in my Primes). I didn't know that for the the first week of use since I also got fitted for Intuition liners to fill up the volume in my calf and hold my ankle a little better. Unfortunately, the Intuition liners made my 120s too stiff so they did as much adjustment with the shell and put in lifts. Helped. I could flex, but man those Intuitions were REALLY uncomfortable. Worse, they were too tight on my right foot. My right toe was getting jammed hard, barely touching when flexed and my toe would go number very quick. The very nice and customer-centered bootfitter told me, with hands cupped over his ears for added effect, "If your toes aren't jammed when flexed, I don't want to hear it". Another fitter worked the toe area of my boot and intuition liner to give me a bit more room. Still tight, but tolerable. However, I was getting a LOT of pain in my shin, down to my ankle.

2. Got back recently to start the last month of our vacation and immediately took out the Intuitions and replaced with stock liners. More comfortable overall, but then I started getting irritation from the edges of the tongue, since I had to fill volume, I put in my old Eliminator foam tongue spacers, which helped eliminate the irritation, but, my upper ankle was really hurting with a section of the ankle, red, swollen, and painful to touch after skiing. Bootfitter called it shin bang. I figured it might be that lift, so yanked the lift. No more pain, AND flexing was no problem...long way to say, the Intuitions could definitely be contributing to stiffness.

Fit-wise, the Ultra 120's would have been the best (I tried some Ultra 130s), but given the stitching issue, and me being able to mask it with the Eliminator foam spacer, the Primes are good enough to get through the rest of the season, then I'll revisit next season.
 
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johnnyvw

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No doubt the intuitions are added to the stiffness, especially since the ones I have are high density. The other thing the intuitions do in a positive manner is create a cushioning layer to the edges of the shell where they cut into the top of my foot when I take them off. How badly the edges cut into my foot when taking them off is by itself a reason to not continue with them. On the old boots I also have the "intermediate" booster straps which allow a bit more flex in bumps etc compared to the stock strap. I could probably get these Ultras to work, but there are so many issues that I would rather return the boots to the shop and try something else, or sell them in "very nearly new" condition before I go down the path of a lot of modifications that would render them useless for anyone else. If they were "close", it would be a different story but I feel these are too far from what I need.

I honestly feel that I probably am used to, and need, a much softer flex in my boots. I am hoping to get some educated evaluations in that direction while at the Utah Gathering.
 
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johnnyvw

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BTW, since I do my own heat forming of my intuitions, I learned a little trick to get a bit more space around my toes: I take an old cotton sock and cut off the toe area and put that under the rubber cap they use, and also put some sock material between my toes to keep them spread out a bit.

I'm one of those who absolutely loves Intuitions, but I have the basic wrap style. I always figure that if everyone liked the same thing, there would only be one brand/model/whatever. There are a lot of options (maybe too many? LOL) because everyone is different.
 

GoodKittens

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I posted this on EPIC last season and may be what an earlier poster in this thread mentioned. These were bought new last season and I had 25-30 days in them when this happened. I was skiing trees and right out of nowhere went head over heels, I assumed I caught a tip on something under the snow but couldn't find anything in the area. The left boot felt weird like my buckles popped open. I skied out to a groomed run next to the glade and this is what I saw:

IMG_20170215_135749.jpg
IMG_20170215_135804.jpg


The local dealer was fantastic and fixed me up in a few days with a new upper cuff sent by Atomic. Later in the season the left boot started to feel weird again and once I got looking there was a crack/split in the inside top of the lower shell where it looks like the plastic is moulded/welded together:
IMG_20170328_103507_hdr.jpg

IMG_20170328_161323.jpg


I just skied it like this for the rest of the season and the boots were replaced under warranty this year. Was definitely sketchy skiing the boot like this was it was early March so there wasn't exactly a surplus of boots available.

Also after the upper cuff on the left boot broke I noticed some cracking/separation of the upper cuff on the right boot:
IMG_20170328_110744.jpg
IMG_20170328_110854.jpg



So this season I'm in the Hawx Ultra 130. Just like the 120, it is a sweet boot; light, amazing fit, comfortable, great performance. However with 35ish days in them the left boot is starting to feel sketchy and is noticeably softer. And I've got my tree run front flip running through my mind all the time while skiing them now. The boot definitely feels odd and isn't just my paranoia. I've pulled everything apart and can't see a crack anywhere. Time will tell...

As far as people saying they're getting wet feet, when I pull the liners out to dry everything there is usually a bit of moisture on the toe box area of the liner, but it's not excessive and I've never had wet feet.

I really like these boots, the out of the box fit is amazing and then with a custom footbed and some attention from the bootfitter they're sweet. I'm just not 100% convinced on the durability.
 

Alain Turcotte

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I have find also a crack on my ATOMIC HAWX 110,still waiting manufacturing ,see what happen ,grrr
 

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Alain Turcotte

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Finally the outside sales from atomic call me to advise me the warranty of 2 years is finished,he advise me the problem on this boots is not unknown, the boots are buy in 2016 warranty pass 1 month ,he offer me a discount for a new one ,the price he give me, I could buy at a store at the same price.never buy atomic boots again it’s over for me
 
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ted

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Finally the outside sales from atomic call me to advise me the warranty of 2 years is finished,he advise me the problem on this boots is not unknown, the boots are buy in 2016 warranty pass 1 month ,he offer me a discount for a new one ,the price he give me, I could buy at a store at the same price.never buy atomic boots again it’s over for me
It may be worth it to post this on the Newschoolers Hawx Ultra thread. The bot manager OneNerdyKid posts there and is very helpfull.

https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/thread/844854/Thoughts-on-Atomic-Hawx-Ultra-130?page=5#p-13948427
 

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