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Tricia

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Can you explain the "vibe"? I have not been to Vail, only Beaver Creek. You liked the terrain at BC or the vibe or both? I plan to ski Deer Valley next season or one after that. Would be good to know how it's different.
From my experience at both Beaver Creek and Deer Valley:
Deer Valley's customer service and food is incredible.
Beaver Creek is like a polished vail brand resort. Nothing special or different about the food or customer service, just a little nicer looking village and polished appeal.

well I know its not about liability...

"appearances" is what I have heard what ever that means.......
This was actually an issue a few years ago when a ski instructor dropped his morning lesson off at mid mountain lodge, skied down to the base to get his lunch out of his locker. Half way down, he slid on the ice into some rocks and died (while in uniform). This was a boiler plate day, hard rain on snow and refreeze.
He was in uniform, but technically on his lunch break.
Sad all the way around.
 

Josh Matta

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I mean not sure how the resort was at a fault.
 

Tricia

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I mean not sure how the resort was at a fault.
I did not mean to imply that the resort was at fault.
I was trying to make a point that every rule is in place for a reason.
When an incident happens and there is question whether or not the employee was on the clock, it can spin into enforcing rules that make the lines clearer, especially when you're dealing with a big company with a huge risk management department.
 

Wasatchman

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Deer Valley also had/has a policy that you could not free ski in uniform. So that's at least one other owner besides Vail that has that policy. It is a PITA for employees though.

One thing that I do understand is it's hard to regulate how employees ski on their own time. It's not a good look if someone in uniform isn't following skier code, etc. Plus given the different levels of ski instructor skill, maybe they don't want the ski instructors who don't ski so well skiing in uniform and people looking at them and saying, woah, those ski instructors sure don't look that good for ski instructors.

Without naming resorts, I know of places that are so short of ski instructors that they'll hire just about anybody who can simply ski, and then stick them teaching kids and never ever skiers. I always wondered, wow, if people knew how little skill they had there might be outrage at how much the resort is charging for lessons by these people, even if it is for never evers and kids on the magic carpet, etc. Regardless, you wouldn't want those skiers on their own time skiing in instructor uniforms. Not a good look for sure.

And yes, this is the first year CB is owned by Vail.
 

LKLA

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I don’t think that either. I wonder if they think too many instructors free-skiing would be an indication that folks weren’t readily buying lessons, given the instructors aren’t too busy to ski on there own? The 1st private lesson I ever signed up for was with an instructor I saw ski (in uniform) and chatted with on the lift.

Ha!

More importantly it’s a matter of what the insurance policy / rider allows under each jurisdiction. Colorado law is not the same as Vermont law (ie - In Vermont inherent risks apply only to areas that are an “obvious and a necessary part” of the sport and don’t include hidden dangers, natural or man-made, while in Colorado the bar is much hugher).
 
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Itinerant skier

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The one enormous positive about these skiing mega-corps that honestly probably outweighs all the negatives is that they're big enough to keep skiing a financially viable business in our increasingly unreliable climate, largely because they've made the businesses about so much more than skiing. I really think it's going to be key in keeping skiing viable in for the next 50+ years.

I don't think it remotely outweighs the negatives. VR and Alterra are putting the sport of skiing at risk almost as much as the climate. They simultaneously price out new participants and put independent and smaller competitors out of business. Think main streets across America gutted first by big box stores, then almost finished off by E-Commerce.
 

dbostedo

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I don't think it remotely outweighs the negatives. VR and Alterra are putting the sport of skiing at risk almost as much as the climate. They simultaneously price out new participants and put independent and smaller competitors out of business. Think main streets across America gutted first by big box stores, then almost finished off by E-Commerce.
My hope there is that overall growth of revenue is their main goal, and overall growth of the number of skiers is a good way to get there. So over the longer haul, they'll have to do something to get new skiers on the mountains.
 
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marjoram_sage

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I think I get it now. I understand why many of you have a dislike for Vail. I feel that many of Vail's actions and policies are a bit sleazy. Not illegal but sleazy. There are many companies like that; I won't name them but all of us know those. If you know their game, then you can do business with them and not get ripped off.

Once you take the bait of cheap Epic pass, they try to reel in your money. But many here are quite informed and take the bait out from the hook, enjoy it and don't get reeled in. I certainly want to join that club and I think I'm in the right place to learn how ogwink.
 
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marjoram_sage

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Without naming resorts, I know of places that are so short of ski instructors that they'll hire just about anybody who can simply ski, and then stick them teaching kids and never ever skiers. I always wondered, wow, if people knew how little skill they had there might be outrage at how much the resort is charging for lessons by these people, even if it is for never evers and kids on the magic carpet, etc.

I think you should name them. It would be public service. People spend a lot on lessons. I certainly wish I had read those ski lessons threads before I took lessons.
 

John O

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My hope there is that overall growth of revenue is their main goal, and overall growth of the number of skiers is a good way to get there. So over the longer haul, they'll have to do something to get new skiers on the mountains.

I like to imagine that they're smart enough to recognize this and are already planning strategies to address what could be a very serious long term issue for them. But you see so many companies these days put short term profits above all else, you can't help but wonder.
 

VickieH

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places that are so short of ski instructors that they'll hire just about anybody who can simply ski, and then stick them teaching kids and never ever skiers.
Apparently Eldora qualifies. Talking to an instructor on a lift (I was thinking of basing myself there and taking some lessons), he said:
  • Eldora has 350 instructors
  • Only 20% have any certification
  • Certification is expensive
  • They don't need to be certified because mostly they just herd children
Do I trust that the ski school would automatically assign me a certified instructor if I booked a private lesson? Oh, hell no.
 

jmeb

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I think you should name them. It would be public service. People spend a lot on lessons. I certainly wish I had read those ski lessons threads before I took lessons.

Keystone for one.

Source: I was offered a job 6 seasons ago when I hadn't skied in a decade plus. All I was told was to show up, be sober and either grow my beard out more or shave it. Asked if i could start next week, very light on training.

Now I'm sure that there are many great ski instructors as all the Vail hills. But there are plenty of folks that would've been just like me.
 

givethepigeye

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Anyone enjoying skiing on a multi-resort, multi-day Pass ie. IkON, MCP, Epic? Asking for a friend.
 

Itinerant skier

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Anyone enjoying skiing on a multi-resort, multi-day Pass ie. IkON, MCP, Epic? Asking for a friend.

yep. Powder Alliance. No monopolies or triple digit day tickets required. Last year had the MAX pass. Less independent and local, but still didn't require any corporate consolidation or threaten the future of the sport I love.
 
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Pequenita

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Without naming resorts, I know of places that are so short of ski instructors that they'll hire just about anybody who can simply ski, and then stick them teaching kids and never ever skiers. I always wondered, wow, if people knew how little skill they had there might be outrage at how much the resort is charging for lessons by these people, even if it is for never evers and kids on the magic carpet, etc. Regardless, you wouldn't want those skiers on their own time skiing in instructor uniforms. Not a good look for sure.
I think you should name them. It would be public service. People spend a lot on lessons. I certainly wish I had read those ski lessons threads before I took lessons.

This is an extremely high number of ski areas, if not all of them, which is why you will see that when you ask for instructor recommendations here, everyone recommends an L2 or L3. With no disrespect to anyone who hasn't had time to take their L2 or higher, passing the L1 is not challenging for someone who has a modicum of social skills, is teachable, and can convey basic elements of skiing. And the majority of places do not require any PSIA cert to begin teaching.
 

dbostedo

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Anyone enjoying skiing on a multi-resort, multi-day Pass ie. IkON, MCP, Epic? Asking for a friend.
I don't understand the question. Thousands of people are enjoying skiing on their multi resort pass. What are you actually asking?
 

Wasatchman

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This is an extremely high number of ski areas, if not all of them, which is why you will see that when you ask for instructor recommendations here, everyone recommends an L2 or L3. With no disrespect to anyone who hasn't had time to take their L2 or higher, passing the L1 is not challenging for someone who has a modicum of social skills, is teachable, and can convey basic elements of skiing. And the majority of places do not require any PSIA cert to begin teaching.
This is a hard one. And to be fair and present the other side of it, to be a good teacher of beginning young children, many other factors are at play beyond pure skiing skill. You don't need to be a college professor to teach kindergarten and many college professors would be lousy kindergarten teachers. Teaching young kids under 5 years old on the magic carpet is a physically demanding job and you have to be really relateable to children. So much more goes into that than simply being a L2 or L3 instructor and it's not hard to think that someone with little formal ski school training who is good with toddlers and up the physically demanding job of lifting up kids all day could actually be a better teacher for young kids on the magic carpet than a lot of L2 or L3s.

So I get what you're saying for a lot of adults and intermediate and up classes. But for small children (and maybe beginner adult classes) I do get where a lot of resorts are coming from IF they still hire good people for those jobs.

Unfortunately, some ski schools let inexperienced instructors slip into other areas where they shouldn't and I think that's your point of L2 or L3 instructors. But depending on the need, L1 (or not even formally certified) can still be a good instructor. And even better depending on the circumstance.

We're getting into thread drift but I just thought it was important to present the other side of it as well. Especially for those that are newer to skiing that might be reading. I know @Pequenita, that you know all of this but just puting it out there for those newer to the sport who might misconstrue the L2 or L3 for all occassions.

But what is weird, and using the kindergarten and college profressor analogy, ski schools are often pricing the cost of the kindergarten lesson nearly the same as the college chemistry class. But again, now we're getting into thread drift.
 
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Pequenita

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@Wasatchman - yes, unimplied is that for a child taking their first lesson, it’s way more important to have someone who is good with kids than someone with a high level of skiing ability.

But anyway, I was mostly responding to OP’s suggestion that we name all the resorts that hire instructors who may not be exemplary skiers, which was tied back to why they may not want staff free skiing in uniform. Many resorts — not just Vail resorts — hire instructors who are not exemplary skiers, so you’d be naming all of them. It’s a practice, and I don’t think there’s really anything wrong with it. Just eye opening when you first learn about it.

Random aside: my mom cannot swim, but she somehow taught my brother to swim.
 

Tricia

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especially when you're dealing with a big company with a huge risk management department.

Ha!

More importantly it’s a matter of what the insurance policy / rider allows under each jurisdiction. Colorado law is not the same as Vermont law (ie - In Vermont inherent risks apply only to areas that are an “obvious and a necessary part” of the sport and don’t include hidden dangers, natural or man-made, while in Colorado the bar is much hugher).
This is the point I was getting at, but you are more articulate.

RE: lack of certified instructors.
Its not uncommon to have a resort, whether its a big resort or small ski hill, to hire non cert instructors to teach. Most ski schools will train these instructors to teach and encourage them to get their L1, and beyond.
 

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