Anti Vail Sentiment

[marjoram_sage]

I'm a new skier. I have been to Heavenly, Squaw, Sierra at Tahoe, Park City, Beaver Creek and Northstar. As such, I don't have a lot of first hand observations on what makes a ski area better than other.

I'm curious why there is a lot of anti Vail sentiment on this forum. I think their pass offers good value. Their ski lessons are really expensive. Vail locations are crowded. Sometimes they don't run lifts because they forgot to plan how many people they are going to need on a weekend. Vail doesn't feel like Costco or Amazon: companies focused on customer satisfaction. They are more like financial institutions who try to make a lot of money off of you anytime you make an error. From what I read, many of the locations on Ikon pass are crowded and expensive with similar policies like Vail. But Ikon doesn't seem to get as much flak as Vail.

I have enjoyed reading @David Chaus' thread on Indie Ski Resorts and over the years, I hope to visit many of the ski areas he has mentioned. I will certainly get an Ikon pass as well one year, maybe this, maybe next. I might get the Epic pass again sometime in future, especially when I build enough skill to enjoy Kirkwood.

I will eventually get first hand experience with various ski areas. But until then, I'd like to understand what makes the Ikon locations more preferable to people here than the Epic pass locations. Is it just low crowds and more expert terrain?

 

[Philpug]

I think much of the sentiment goes back to the Epic days when the site was sold to Vail, and we were told that nothing would change and it would be business as usual. Well, we know things did change, @Tricia and I were released, and eventually Epic was shut down when there were alternatives to be had. The community was very protective of us and were unhappy enough to come up with the name Pugski.com, buy the URL, Crowd Fund us to start the site and build Pugski. Well, there was a silver lining in all of that and creating is the platform that you are wrtting this on now, Pugski.com. If that is still the case with some, all we can say is we can let that go, we have moved on, those how are still not happy with Vail for these reasons, should too.

Their ski lessons are really expensive. Vail locations are crowded. Sometimes they don't run lifts because they forgot to plan how many people they are going to need on a weekend.

Yes, Vail's instruction can be expensive and some of the kickback is that they don't pay their instructors as well as other resorts. As far as the staffing issues, we saw that when we worked for Vail retail, departmental budgets come from the top and they are sometimes wrong in their estimations and end up understaffed and yes it seems more previlent of late.

We also own Epic passes and have been to all three Tahoe Resorts along with Beaver Creek and will be going to Park City and A-Basin later this year and with Keystone and Breckenridge commiting to be open later, very well those resorts too. I think Vail's commitment to the military with the $99 pass is very commendable and doesn't get the attention it warrents.

 

[doc]

I'm curious why there is a lot of anti Vail sentiment on this forum.

Probably for the same reasons there are so many New England Patriot haters: success + dominance + heavy-handedness results in antipathy toward a brand.

 

[Beach Bum]

I agree with post above. Vail back bowls and Blue Sky on a good powder day is some of the best skiing offered anywhere in the US. But the absurd price tag, the crazy ticket price inflation, the naming of streets after rich Manhattan, the luxurious offerings that are only affordable for those Manhattan elites and other international multi-millionaires, etc feed into the reputation.

 

[Ken_R]

I'm a new skier. I have been to Heavenly, Squaw, Sierra at Tahoe, Park City, Beaver Creek and Northstar. As such, I don't have a lot of first hand observations on what makes a ski area better than other.

I'm curious why there is a lot of anti Vail sentiment on this forum. I think their pass offers good value. Their ski lessons are really expensive. Vail locations are crowded. Sometimes they don't run lifts because they forgot to plan how many people they are going to need on a weekend. Vail doesn't feel like Costco or Amazon: companies focused on customer satisfaction. They are more like financial institutions who try to make a lot of money off of you anytime you make an error. From what I read, many of the locations on Ikon pass are crowded and expensive with similar policies like Vail. But Ikon doesn't seem to get as much flak as Vail.

I have enjoyed reading @David Chaus' thread on Indie Ski Resorts and over the years, I hope to visit many of the ski areas he has mentioned. I will certainly get an Ikon pass as well one year, maybe this, maybe next. I might get the Epic pass again sometime in future, especially when I build enough skill to enjoy Kirkwood.

I will eventually get first hand experience with various ski areas. But until then, I'd like to understand what makes the Ikon locations more preferable to people here than the Epic pass locations. Is it just low crowds and more expert terrain?

There are MANY reasons why there is an anti-Vail sentiment in general by long time skiers and enthusiasts. IKON is the new kid on the block and given some time that negativity will be directed at them as well since the business model is quite similar to the Epic Pass.

As with anything there are plusses and negatives to the Passes.

Positives? For a set price you have access to the best ski resorts in the world. The ski resort operators get access to gobs of capital which in turn allows them to make improvements to the ski area facilities including newer and better lifts.

Negatives? Well, primarily, Crowding. There are other negatives that degrade the skier experience (and affect cost) but the primary complaint is that, too many people.

 

[Uncle Louie]

Vail Resorts does put out a good product, but if you aren't careful you'll pay through the nose for it. Most of my Vail Resort experiences were in Colorado and while I feel "so-so" about Keystone and Beaver Creek, I really like Vail and Breckenridge (worked at Breck for 4 seasons) I had Vail Resorts passes for about 17 years before pulling the plug on them 3 seasons ago.

The crowds in Summit / Eagle counties became unbearable and dangerous to say the least. While I am lucky / skilled enough to go places on the mountain where many can't, the same isn't true for my better half (SugarCube). She had several close calls / near misses that shook both of us up. I was hit at Breck about 5 seasons ago. He got hurt, I had to walk around and collect my gear. Nancy is pretty much afraid to ski in Breck now.

Paid parking at Vail is a pain in the neck, though I haven't paid to park there for years. There are legal ways around it. Dining on the hill ? Wildwoods once in awhile at the top of 3 chair. Maybe a snack at Two Elk. Never at Breck since they took back the Peak 9 Restaurant after being run for decades by a few very nice people.

Many here will argue that they have "flat terrain". Breck has some serious terrain at the top of Breckenridge, but that's about it. They do however manage the snow nicely.

Phil is, of course, on the nose as far as the closure of Epic. That HURT many of us that put a lot of time and effort into EpicSki. When they bought it, it was all about connection to the word "EPIC" and nothing else mattered. They hired Phil and Tricia to run the site, then canned them and replaced them with a nobody till they decided to close it. Then there was the ditsy girl that was at the helm. No redeeming qualities there.

They announced the closure of the web site with only a few days warning (off season). They extended the closure date for a few days (per request of the posters) so that we could try to save decades of content. Anything you ever needed was there somewhere. The end was a freak show.

Here's my personal problem with Vail. I ran a series of very successful events there every spring for a few years and we took the National Gathering there also. That's a lot of tickets and passes. On the last "Let's go Colorado" event I ran (retirement # 1), everybody got a free lunch (compliments of SugarCube and I), but they had to stand in the snow through a 10 minute surprise wedding (on a powder day) at the top of Kangaroo Cornice. Vail in no way ever reached out to congratulate us or get a story for PR purposes. When the site closed pages of wedding pictures went into their storage room. Know what it feels like to watch your wedding photos disappear ?

Thanks for some great times Vail, but I'll never forget or forgive you for closing EpicSki.

 

[RachelV]

Vail Resorts also refuses to partner with any 3rd party on anything. No tickets through Liftopia, no snow reports on their sites via OpenSnow, etc. It often seems awfully petty to me.

 

[TheArchitect]

As @Ken_R said, give it time and Ikon will receive the same. It's already happening at some resorts and I'm sure it will find its way online and to this forum at some point. The people I listened to on the lift at Jackson were complaining about the crowds. One guy had sticker on his ski with the word Ikon crossed out with a red slash. Similar story at Big Sky. A local said the typical wait time for the tram had doubled from 30 minutes to an hour.

I'm have a mixed opinion on the topic. I can appreciate the frustration a local has with much longer lift lines due to a Vail or Alterra pass. On the other hand, the Ikon pass is allowing me to ski a lot more and frankly, the locals have no more right to that mountain than anyone else. Plus, I heard people on Friday saying that JH was crowded that day and the lines were too long. I've seen lines 2-3 times that length here in the east and we call it a normal weekend day. I have sympathy but it's limited.


Edit: I was relatively new to EpicSki when all of the crap went down. I wasn't nearly as invested as others but from what I've heard and seen the way Vail handled the site towards the end was piss-poor

 

[Josh Matta]

My entire beef with Vail as someone who didnt choose to work for them but now works for them, is they havent done a single thing to make my job easy, better for my guest, or more fun for myself or my guest

My biggest beefs are.....

1. a uniform policy that says I am not suppose to freeski in my uniform, even between my lessons, when it would be basically impossible to change out my pants and back into my freeski pants. As someone who was working 5-7 days weeks this would mean basically over half my freeski time is suppose to be spent sitting in the lodge.

2. a uniform that had no thought on to wear I or my coworker worked at. We were given fully insulated, non waterproof uniform that is awful in many ways. It impossible to stay cool enough on warmer days even in low intensity lessons, and high intensity lessons even on cool days the lack of breath ability and venting means you will sweat into the insulation which will never dry. Not to mention the lack of waterproofing in place where it has rained or wet snowed about 15 days this year, and the uniform wont even dry out over night.

I am not posting this anonymously there for it falls into the guidelines laid in the Vail employe handbook. If I had nothing to complain about I wouldnt be posting this anyways.

Vails resorts has actually made me not want to teach on rainy days, and warmer days because of my own caring of my comfort and health. They also caused me to go to part time because of a policy that basically make you sit around and do nothing when there is nothing to do too anyone who knows me they know that I would actually love to teach anyday regardless of weather(assuming I can dress properly), and I would teach most days if I had time to freeski during the day. Overall I would tell others to avoid working for this company until they start taking "their experience of a lifetime" for their guest and employees more seriously.

 

[Philpug]

I will say this is a big plus for the Tahoe EpicPass holders...

Northstar is extending our season! Due to the amazing snow amounts all three Tahoe Resorts will be adjusting their closing dates:

• Heavenly Mountain Resort season extended through April 28, 2019, plus 3-day-weekend May 3-5
• Northstar California Resort season extended through April 21, 2019
• Kirkwood Mountain Resort season extended through April 14, 2019, plus 3-day-weekend April 19-21​

 

[Started at 53]

We skied Vail last year, and to be honest I was still very limited at that time, in the terrain I could ski, but that said, we hated Vail. We would never go to Vail again. When I say we, this includes my wife who can ski any groomed run (she just rarely if ever skis off-piste). Beyond the terrain, we did not like the “vibe” either. We only skied Beaver Creek one day and that was a mistake as we loved BC! LOVED IT!

Our dislike of Vail has nothing to do with passes, employment or websites, just an inferior experience in our opinions.

 

[Philpug]

We skied Vail last year, and to be honest I was still very limited at that time, in the terrain I could ski, but that said, we hated Vail. We would never go to Vail again. When I say we, this includes my wife who can ski any groomed run (she just rarely if ever skis off-piste). Beyond the terrain, we did not like the “vibe” either. We only skied Beaver Creek one day and that was a mistake as we loved BC! LOVED IT!

Our dislike of Vail has nothing to do with passes, employment or websites, just an inferior experience in our opinions.

This isn't so much questioning Vail as a resort but Vail as an organization. To your point, Vail as a resort can depend on a lot of things and as you said your exposure to terrain was limited at the time but Vail's back bowls are amazing and as @Beach Bum said, some of the best skiing anywhere. Vail as an organization is what this is about and @doc says, success breeds contempt. For all the complaints against Vail they get people in the door and on the slopes skiing, for that, they are a very positive addition to the ski industry.

 

[Jenny]

Beyond the terrain, we did not like the “vibe” either. We only skied Beaver Creek one day and that was a mistake as we loved BC! LOVED IT!

That's the way I feel about Vail and Beaver Creek, too. Pretty sure the people at Beaver Creek can buy and sell the people at Vail, but they don't act like it.

And then, of course, warm cookies!

 

[Coach13]

I think much of the sentiment goes back to the Epic days when the site was sold to Vail, and we were told that nothing would change and it would be business as usual. Well, we know things did change, @Tricia and I were released, and eventually Epic was shut down when there were alternatives to be had. The community was very protective of us and were unhappy enough to come up with the name Pugski.com, buy the URL, Crowd Fund us to start the site and build Pugski. Well, there was a silver lining in all of that and creating is the platform that you are wrtting this on now, Pugski.com. If that is still the case with some, all we can say is we can let that go, we have moved on, those how are still not happy with Vail for these reasons, should too.



Yes, Vail's instruction can be expensive and some of the kickback is that they don't pay their instructors as well as other resorts. As far as the staffing issues, we saw that when we worked for Vail retail, departmental budgets come from the top and they are sometimes wrong in their estimations and end up understaffed and yes it seems more previlent of late.

We also own Epic passes and have been to all three Tahoe Resorts along with Beaver Creek and will be going to Park City and A-Basin later this year and with Keystone and Breckenridge commiting to be open later, very well those resorts too. I think Vail's commitment to the military with the $99 pass is very commendable and doesn't get the attention it warrents.

I agree with all you said, but even on Epic long before Vail was in the EpicSki picture, there was a lot of anti-Vail sentiment.

My sense is much of it comes from the non-destination, local skiers who feel Vail thru their growth has damaged the core values of older, original ski resorts. Hence, all the Disney-Vail references. In my opinion, that sentiment mostly comes from folks who have not skied a Vail resort or had “their” resort purchased by Vail.

 

[dbostedo]

I joined Epic in part to ask about my at the time upcoming Vail trip - my first trip out west. I got both some good advice and a few posts of "don't go to Vail, they're awful".

To my thinking at the time after reading a lot about it, that was because they were a big business trying to maximize profit. This upset people who think independent ski areas are run more for the ski experience and less for the resort experience, and who think they have better vibe or more soul.

That may be true, but the skiing can still be great and I don't see any reason any company that can keep the sport healthy shouldn't be applauded.

 

[SugarCube]

I joined Epic in part to ask about my at the time upcoming Vail trip - my first trip out west. I got both some good advice and a few posts of "don't go to Vail, they're awful".

To my thinking at the time after reading a lot about it, that was because they were a big business trying to maximize profit. This upset people who think independent ski areas are run more for the ski experience and less for the resort experience, and who think they have better vibe or more soul.

That may be true, but the skiing can still be great and I don't see any reason any company that can keep the sport healthy shouldn't be applauded.

Vail's (the organization) pricing is making skiing for the common man/woman/skier almost prohibitively expensive. Not sure how healthy that is for the sport.

 

[Tricia]

To my thinking at the time after reading a lot about it, that was because they were a big business trying to maximize profit. This upset people who think independent ski areas are run more for the ski experience and less for the resort experience, and who think they have better vibe or more soul.

I think this is a big part of it, and anything that goes corporate will draw some criticism.
Look at what happened when KSL bought Squaw, which is now a part of Alterra on the IKON pass.
The Squaw locals don't like it but the multi resort pass works well for us.

 

[Philpug]

Vail's (the organization) pricing is making skiing for the common man/woman/skier almost prohibitively expensive. Not sure how healthy that is for the sport.

Not if you buy the pass. As I said in another thread, "Do you know what is expensive? Ignorance." When planing a trip, do your research, depending on your locale and where you choose to ski, there are great values out there. Vail (or most resorts) do not hide their pass costs..but they do have a finite time for how long they are offered. If you can afford to fly for a trip...you can afford to buy a pass.

 

[Coach13]

Vail's (the organization) pricing is making skiing for the common man/woman/skier almost prohibitively expensive. Not sure how healthy that is for the sport.

I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder. A season pass at most of the very small Mid-Atlantic resorts is $500-700+. That’s pretty comparable to the Epic Local pass, imo and not far off of the unlimited full Epic Pass.

 

[dbostedo]

Vail's (the organization) pricing is making skiing for the common man/woman/skier almost prohibitively expensive. Not sure how healthy that is for the sport.

Places that aren't pass participants (like local mid-A places) are expensive too.

Vail and Alterra have taken this to the extreme, but in the long run they're going to have to look to grow the number of skiers (or at least visits).

Seems like they might have realized they grow/capture the spring market with the Breck and Keystone announcements for next year. I wonder if that will spread?