Anti-groomers

[Jerez]

@elemmac I used to have an "all mountain" ski (mid 80s) for the on-piste days, but last season went skinny after a horrible 17-18 season where the conditions were mostly mud and rocks with a thin path of ice.

(So you are welcome for the epic deep snow season this past year!) ​

Bought Stockli Laser AX. I did take them out on low snow days last season and have rediscovered my inner groomer. A blast and good in shallow crud and ice bumps. (Mind you, I only ventured on-piste when skiing with the kiddos or when the conditions are so nasty that the trees are not inviting. I would NEVER seek out a groomer if there were other options. Really. I swear.

@Josh Matta I loved the videos. You made it look like you were having fun and being playful in the conditions you described. Impressive.

 

[Lauren]

Mind you, I only ventured on-piste when skiing with the kiddos or when the conditions are so nasty that the trees are not inviting. I would NEVER seek out a groomer if there were other options. Really. I swear.

Is there any other way to ski?

 

[KingGrump]

I've never been on an FIS version, but have given SL skis a shot a few years ago. They were fun for a few runs, but honestly...probably not my cup of tea for a full day of skiing. Maybe I'll have to get back on them at some point, see if my view has changed.

We like FIS SL because they are predictable. We find a lot of front side carvers to be too soft for liking while rolling at speed.
The trick to a pair of FIS SL is timing and feel. Sync the leg retraction with the rebound of the skis. If you get it right, the legs will come up with no muscular effort. Work with it rather than fight it. Pace and soft legs. Don't have to go b**ls to the wall all the time. We ski lots of bumps on FIS SL.

Several Pugs had skied on my FIS SL last season. They all loved it and wanted a pair for themselves. I know @Sandy_NYC went out and bought a pair over the summer. Few others are looking for the right deals.
Mamie skied on my FIS SL last season on several occasions. She even skied the bumps on K2 West Face at Squaw in the spring. She wanted a pair after that. She will be on a pair this coming season. She is actually getting one of my old ones with a new X12 binding. The DIN on the X16 starts too high for her. She is also getting a pair of cheater GS skis. She wanted the additions of the race skis to her quiver because she feels they will clean up her skiing and they are fun.

Wait... How did an "Anti Groomer" thread become about what skis to use on groomers?

It's all good. We don't judge.

 

[Mike King]

I ski the MX84 on and off-piste, unless there is more than 6" of fresh, then I'll go up to a MX98. Unless I'm just having fun on a pair of RX/SLs.

Mike

 

[Goose]

I was wondering what people who love the powder, crud, bumps and generally uneven surfaces use on groomers to make it more interesting.
.

Well, plant some trees on it, shape some bumps, throw on some crud and some powder and you wont have to worry about it.

Jk of course,...But honestly why does a groomer have to be more interesting? It just is what it is. And many folks find that quite interesting enough and also more than fun enough as well. Conditions on groomers are not at all always constant either especially in the east. At first its soft, then next frozen, or frozen first then soft, the next sloppy, the next can be frozen again, then bumpy, then one part soft, another part sloppy, another part boiler plate and another part bumpy. You just never know what you get from one groomer trail to the next and even on the same one an hour later or even on different parts of the same run. Thats always interesting imo. Not to mention what mother nature throws at them as well of both good and bad. Point being its not at all always the same nor boring nor interest lacking imo. Very often requires skier input adjustments. And fwiw when it does stay the same and if it is good conditions one can have a blast changing the way he/she is inputting the skiing. Short, mid, long, fast, slow, combos of all etc.... all sounds pretty interesting to me, But to eahc his/her own i suppose

 

[KingGrump]

But honestly why does a groomer have to be more interesting? It just is what it is.

The groomer is what you put into it. It's a blank canvas. Some find it too blank. Some like to color by numbers.

Have to admit the bar for "interesting" is set rather low.

 

[Goose]

The groomer is what you put into it. It's a blank canvas. Some find it too blank. Some like to color by numbers.

exactly as I implied in my post there.

 

[EricG]

Groomed or not. Still better than sitting behind a desk at work.

 

[HDSkiing]

I ski the MX84 on and off-piste, unless there is more than 6" of fresh, then I'll go up to a MX98. Unless I'm just having fun on a pair of RX/SLs.

Mike

I’ve not skied the MX84 but it strikes me as a ski I’d buy without Demoing (like most of my ski’s Lol). Any idea if they offer Pro Deals? Kästle is not on PSIA site.

FWIW 90% of time I ski a head iRally. Groomed, bumps, un-groomed, Steeps and even have had it in a foot or so of powder. (No issues but there was a base underneath). I do have some K2 Pinnacle 105’s I take out for thick, wet, choppy stuff or really deep powder, fun ski & playful, great in trees, but just too wide for my taste. Looking for something more in-between the iRally and pinnacle and been thinking the MX84 might be it, or the Stöckli SR 88.

 

[Mike King]

I've responded to HDSking via PM.

 

[David]

There’s a lot of posting done on threads about groomers, how steep, best ones, most, etc. That leaves out the anti-groomer crowd.

There are lots of better skiers than me on this board, but not much talk of the types of skiing that I do most. What’s up with that? I’m sure it’s not always perfect conditions, even outside of the Cascades. Is it a PITA for most? Are groomers and uncut powder snow really the only stuff you should enjoy? It seems like it when I read posts here at Pug. If so, I disagree.

Groomers are great for beginners and intermediates, but soon they need to get some experience in the uncut and crud that lies all over the place just off the groomed at many ski areas/resorts. The benefits are many: less people, more challenge, lots of variety, taking nature at its face, not making it into a freeway experience, etc., etc.

I ski regularly at the most anti-groomer place I’ve experienced; Mt. Baker. They only groom enough (other than the blue and green runs, which are limited) to get folks back to the base of the chair. Their stated reasoning is that you should like to ski on loose snow, so learn.

I know, I know. Carving is fun, but you can carve in crud and powder and slop of all kinds. In fact you have to do it if you want to have any fun, because sliding your tails in those conditions is difficult to impossible.

So, am I wrong? Lambaste away.

I think you're right. But here in the midwest we have groomers and ground as our options. I've struggled off the groomers out west so this year I bought wider skis and hope to spend my vacations dialing it in. I'll need some help to get it figured out but I'm committing this year to that!

 

[François Pugh]

It seems some folk are misreading posts and having their feeling hurt because they read it as "If you prefer this type of skiing, it's because you don't have the skill, or a high enough skill level for that type of skiing."
Folk who have been skiing a long time and are confident in their skills don't worry about it.

It doesn't take a very high skill level to enjoy skiing groomers, it takes more skill to enjoy skiing non-groomed terrain, but it takes a much higher skill level and the right equipment to make clean high-g, high speed turns on the groomed, and that's where the true fun of groomed run skiing lies.

Pressure, balance, absorption and more, are common skills to all types of skiing, but practice in ones preferred environment is required to increase skills.

Sure one can ski the wrong ski for the conditions and still enjoy the skiing; a true expert can (almost) ski anything anywhere in any conditions. However, you will have a lot more fun with the right tool for the job, once you learn how to properly use that tool. The right tool for the job, the one that will give you the most enjoyment at that job is a purpose built ski for that job, not a compromise ski, not all mountain that does ok at both jobs, not AX -choose SL,GS,SX for groomed and choose Stormrider for off-piste, and if by off-piste you mean bumps (not untouched deep snow in the trees), get a bump ski.

 

[geepers]

It seems some folk are misreading posts and having their feeling hurt because they read it as "If you prefer this type of skiing, it's because you don't have the skill, or a high enough skill level for that type of skiing."
Folk who have been skiing a long time and are confident in their skills don't worry about it.

It doesn't take a very high skill level to enjoy skiing groomers, it takes more skill to enjoy skiing non-groomed terrain, but it takes a much higher skill level and the right equipment to make clean high-g, high speed turns on the groomed, and that's where the true fun of groomed run skiing lies.

Pressure, balance, absorption and more, are common skills to all types of skiing, but practice in ones preferred environment is required to increase skills.

Sure one can ski the wrong ski for the conditions and still enjoy the skiing; a true expert can (almost) ski anything anywhere in any conditions. However, you will have a lot more fun with the right tool for the job, once you learn how to properly use that tool. The right tool for the job, the one that will give you the most enjoyment at that job is a purpose built ski for that job, not a compromise ski, not all mountain that does ok at both jobs, not AX -choose SL,GS,SX for groomed and choose Stormrider for off-piste, and if by off-piste you mean bumps (not untouched deep snow in the trees), get a bump ski.

This does seem to imply the need to carry around a backpack full of skis that can be brought out for the intended run. Or that skiing one type of run until returning to the ski stash to pick another choice.

Nah, prefer skiing what I brought for the day (ah...season?) and making whimsical choices of run type during or at top of each chairlift ride. Not got some specialist bump skis for the mogul run? Hmmm, 1st world problem - just cope.


There's posts above re expert skiing and whether this or that condition is a determiner. Could I submit that one type of condition that should be included is nil vis? The ability to maintain form in the middle of a wide open pitch - no trees, no contrast - on one of those ski-by-braille days. The days when the only thing visible from the lift is the chair you're sitting on.

 

[KingGrump]

There's posts above re expert skiing and whether this or that condition is a determiner. Could I submit that one type of condition that should be included is nil vis? The ability to maintain form in the middle of a wide open pitch - no trees, no contrast - on one of those ski-by-braille days. The days when the only thing visible from the lift is the chair you're sitting on.

Welcome to W/B. SSDD everyday.

 

[Popeye Cahn]

This does seem to imply the need to carry around a backpack full of skis that can be brought out for the intended run. Or that skiing one type of run until returning to the ski stash to pick another choice.

Nah, prefer skiing what I brought for the day (ah...season?) and making whimsical choices of run type during or at top of each chairlift ride. Not got some specialist bump skis for the mogul run? Hmmm, 1st world problem - just cope.


There's posts above re expert skiing and whether this or that condition is a determiner. Could I submit that one type of condition that should be included is nil vis? The ability to maintain form in the middle of a wide open pitch - no trees, no contrast - on one of those ski-by-braille days. The days when the only thing visible from the lift is the chair you're sitting on.

So ski what ya brung and what the mountain hath giveth... that's my motto on the bike. I have one and it has to cover a variety of conditions (second set of wheels helps). I enjoy having a field day progressing on the trails and roads. I only have one pair of skis right now, I trust I'll do the same on the slopes...

 

[Paul Lutes]

I sense a quiver vs non-quiver show down lurking in the shadows.

 

[Posaune]

What I really like about ungroomed, cut up stuff is the inner feeling of accomplishment when I link some turns in it. If it's freshly cut real powder it's nice, but when it's heavy crud and I handle it, I get a bit of an inner glow. It's like I'm telling myself, "This is garbage, yet I'm having fun!."

The uncut is another story entirely. It's really fun, and I'll go for it every time, but it's also extremely fleeting. Crud sticks around and can be enjoyed over and over.

I'm sorry that this seems to challenge some, and to them it looks like bragging or something, but so does a lot of the stuff around here. If you've never experienced the joy of crud, make it a personal challenge rather than a threat to your ego. Have fun!

And another challenge to some around here is my personal belief that your "quiver" doesn't define you. I don't care about it, and neither do most others. Ski on whatever you like, but I'll not be reading about it.

 

[David Chaus]

I sense a quiver vs non-quiver show down lurking in the shadows.

Quiver with an-ti-ci.......pation?!

Oh, wait, that’s “shiver” with anticipation. I think I’ve seen Rocky Horror a few too many times.

 

[David Chaus]

What I really like about ungroomed, cut up stuff is the inner feeling of accomplishment when I link some turns in it. If it's freshly cut real powder it's nice, but when it's heavy crud and I handle it, I get a bit of an inner glow. It's like I'm telling myself, "This is garbage, yet I'm having fun!."

The uncut is another story entirely. It's really fun, and I'll go for it every time, but it's also extremely fleeting. Crud sticks around and can be enjoyed over and over.

For the last few years, I’ve been telling myself that my goal is to get good at crud, so I’m always looking for it. And if I find some fresh untracked, or perfect groomers, well, that’s just something I’ll just have to learn to live with.

 

[Lauren]

If you've never experienced the joy of crud, make it a personal challenge rather than a threat to your ego. Have fun!

This right here is the key to enjoying cruddy conditions....have fun with it. Enjoy the little victories.....making 2 turns without falling over, feeling competent for 2.5 seconds, and doing it all with a smile on your face. Most importantly, learn to laugh at yourself and never take yourself too seriously.