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analyzing high energy powder turn

James

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Well with that last shot the line looks pretty close between the two.

One thing I'm certain of, it has almost nothing to do with Marcus Caston in steep wind buffed pow.
 

geepers

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Nice. I perceive MS extending as she goes over that roll. Vlhova not so much. Can you put the Vlhova over the MS clip?

How about PV run 1 vs PV run 2. Her run 1 line is virtually identical to MS run 2 in any case.

 
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karlo

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One thing I'm certain of, it has almost nothing to do with Marcus Caston in steep wind buffed pow.

Except the power that ski-snow interaction can impart?? :) Marcus harnessed that to his advantage; PV less so.

No need for camber.

What you need is to load the skis forcefully at the end of the turn, which might mean get them out of the fall line quite a bit.
Just like on a groomer, extend your outside leg a lot when you approach the fall line, then retract a lot and fast, and of course tip the skis and pull back (after the edge change)

Marcus was good enough to reply to my Instagram message. He was on Blizzard Zero G 105's. That's good to know, that this can be done with a touring ski, cuz that's what I'll have with me.
 

James

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Except the power that ski-snow interaction can impart?? :) Marcus harnessed that to his advantage; PV less so.
Well, you're only judging one successful turn vs an unsuccessful one. We don't know if Marcus bit it later in the run.

You'll want to practice some turns where you can get a big impulse out of the turn and get air through transition. You can do it on groomed. No need for pow. Pitch and snow will change it somewhat in the pow, but it's similar.

Marcus was good enough to reply to my Instagram message. He was on Blizzard Zero G 105's. That's good to know, that this can be done with a touring ski, cuz that's what I'll have with me.
Cool he answered.
It's not the ski...ogsmile
 

Josh Matta

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yeah its not the ski. Marcus could have done this turn on anything.
 

Wilhelmson

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As they say, these things just happen. Have to go fast on a steep hill. If you have lots of energy and release stop doing whatever it is that keeps your skis on the snow. Maybe keep it a little too tight and end the turn early with inside foot back transfering energy more forward. If you are worried about the next bump or turn it isnt going to happen.
 

geepers

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Except the power that ski-snow interaction can impart?? :) Marcus harnessed that to his advantage; PV less so.



Marcus was good enough to reply to my Instagram message. He was on Blizzard Zero G 105's. That's good to know, that this can be done with a touring ski, cuz that's what I'll have with me.

A bit hard on PV! It was one turn.

Yeah, as others have posted, getting rebound can be practiced on groomers. Here's Nadine Grünenfelder demo-ing strong rebound in short turns.

And it's not the skis. The important point is getting grip for ground reaction force at the right time. In one of the Projected Productions vids the skier says he visualises a pitch as a lot of mini-trampolines mounted on their side and he just bounces his way down. :thumb:

I don't agree that it has to be a steep and fast run. Certainly not flat as you do have to be in motion to utilise the pole vault effect. But if you can't generate rebound at a reasonable speed going faster isn't going to help.
 

Mike-AT

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Yay, new episode of #ReturnOfTheTurn! You see Marcus doing a nice turn in the air at 1:54:


From what I see, he stems out/pushes the downhill ski (look at the bend!) and upon the release pulls up his legs to get the skis in the air. So yeah, less of a jump turn as it seems to be energy from the release plus flexion.

Your thoughts?
 
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karlo

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upon the release pulls up his legs to get the skis in the air. So yeah, less of a jump turn as it seems to be energy from the release plus flexion.

He has definitely gotten a pulse of energy to lift his skis up. What I perceive is that once they are going up, he flexes his legs to stay in the air a bit longer and takes that opportunity to turn in the air. When the skis contact snow, he is past the typical shaping phase, resulting in a huge amount of energy going into a finish, a finish that starts with the tips of the skis diving into the snow and ends with pressure on the tails that jets him out for the next aerial turn.

Would be interested to know what others see.

Of course, the most important question, @Mike-AT, is how did you post the video in such a way that it starts at 1:54?
 

James

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That 2nd turn around 1:58 when he's on that steep mt, I think he stems because he's getting damn close to the edge of a cliff! Look at it, it's serious terrain.
Gotta stop the movement in that direction.

Otherwise, he's loading up energy at the bottom of the turn, using the steepness of the slope, then releasing. If the turn shape was a bit different, not so across the fall line, he'd be porpoising likely.

So I think he brings the skis around a bit more to slow descent and build up the energy to pop. A style.
 
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karlo

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he's loading up energy at the bottom of the turn, using the steepness of the slope, then releasing

It was said earlier that this can be practiced on a groomer. I don’t think I would be able to do that. I don’t think my legs can withstand the impact. I would need that powder to soften the blow
 

KingGrump

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It was said earlier that this can be practiced on a groomer. I don’t think I would be able to do that. I don’t think my legs can withstand the impact. I would need that powder to soften the blow

Yes, you can work on it on a groomer.
If you have issues. Then you are doing it wrong. That's all.
 

geepers

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He has definitely gotten a pulse of energy to lift his skis up. What I perceive is that once they are going up, he flexes his legs to stay in the air a bit longer and takes that opportunity to turn in the air. When the skis contact snow, he is past the typical shaping phase, resulting in a huge amount of energy going into a finish, a finish that starts with the tips of the skis diving into the snow and ends with pressure on the tails that jets him out for the next aerial turn.

Would be interested to know what others see.

Of course, the most important question, @Mike-AT, is how did you post the video in such a way that it starts at 1:54?

Be good to see a longer series of turns in one take. For whatever reason the clips only show a couple of turns at a time.

What I see is: Marcus heading approximately down the fall line from the last turn
Marcus1.jpg


He then starts to bring his skis across his direction of travel
Marcus2.jpg


to start building a base of support
Marcus3.jpg


He could use that BoS to redirect his mass across the pitch however in this case he chooses to use his legs to vault over it
Marcus4.jpg


which results him going up instead of across
Marcus5.jpg


And he flexes his legs to bring his skis clear of the snow for a rinse and repeat.
Marcus6.jpg


To start a youtube at a specific time just click on that "Start at x:yz" checkbox in the share dialog box. Note how it will then add a t= whatever number of seconds you wish the vid to start at to the vid url. As we see here "Start at 3:00 will means t= 180 seconds.
Share-with-Start-Time.jpg


It was said earlier that this can be practiced on a groomer. I don’t think I would be able to do that. I don’t think my legs can withstand the impact. I would need that powder to soften the blow

It's not the big jump that needs to be practiced on the groomer - it's getting rebound to float through the transition. If you can get that on the groomer then should be able to figure out how to use the same thing in the pow.
 
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KingGrump

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He could use that BoS to redirect his mass across the pitch however in this case he chooses to use his legs to vault over it

which results him going up instead of across

And he flexes his legs to bring his skis clear of the snow for a rinse and repeat.

There are lots of energy stored in the ski. If he simply redirect his mass across and down the fall line, the ski will kick him like what happened to Vlhova.
It also good in his situation for his ski to clear the snow. Less likelihood of tripping (on the snow). The skis can turn much faster without any external resistant.

it's getting rebound to float through the transition.

Bravo. Nailed it.
Shortish rebound turns with plenty of lateral float through the transition. Timing the leg retraction to sync with the ski rebound is the key. Very little energy (from the legs) is required when the timing is right.
 

geepers

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There are lots of energy stored in the ski. If he simply redirect his mass across and down the fall line, the ski will kick him like what happened to Vlhova.
It also good in his situation for his ski to clear the snow. Less likelihood of tripping (on the snow). The skis can turn much faster without any external resistant.

I take it that avoiding being 'kicked' is a matter of managing pressure and having the CoM so placed in order to be projected in the desired direction. Like bouncing on a trampoline - if feet are underneath the CoM then the trampoliner will go vertically up. If the feet are not underneath then our trampoliner will be projected elsewhere. (Can also kill the bounce by absorbing at just the right time.)

In the case of our skiers MC correctly balanced and managed the pressure for his desired outcome and PV didn't.

And, yes, his skis are clear of the snow (image #1 and last image) so he can place them appropriately for the next turn.

On the bit about skis and rebound...
Ron le Master reckons there are 3 sources of rebound:
1. The ski (but he says it doesn't actually store/release much)
2. The skier muscles being stretched and springing back on release
3. The pole vaulting effect
Jurij Franko (the Elan shaped ski designer) agrees with him re the skis not storing much usable energy. So there's a bit of pedigree in that assertion.

My personal experience is that I can generate rebound in short turns using a worn out pair of Bushwackers with all the springiness of a typical strand of over-cooked spaghetti. And, frankly, at my age there really isn't a lot of muscle to do much of anything. Which makes me inclined to think pole vaulting is the main ingredient.

However.... some skis feel "springy/lively/reboundy" compared to others. Why would that be the case based on le Master and Franko comments? So I wonder if those skis are just better at hooking up in the conditions, establishing a BoS on command whether we did so deliberately (like MC) or unintentionally (like PV).

:huh::huh:

Can be persuaded by PERL.
 
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karlo

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Be good to see a longer series of turns in one take. For whatever reason the clips only show a couple of turns at a time.

I noticed that too and wonder if this turn is somehow not sustainable for a series of linked turns, say 3, 4, 5.

If he simply redirect his mass across and down the fall line, the ski will kick him like what happened to Vlhova.

I had the same thought too, except from the opposite direction. Mine was that PV can for sure do this turn, if only she hadn’t had a line to stick too. That would have been a groomer-demonstration of MC’s turn, but she’d be off course. But, hey, she was off course anyway, so I would have rather see the demonstration.

However.... some skis feel "springy/lively/reboundy" compared to others. Why would that be the case based on le Master and Franko comments? So I wonder if those skis are just better at hooking up in the conditions

PV to the white courtesy telephone. :)
 

Mike-AT

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I take it that avoiding being 'kicked' is a matter of managing pressure and having the CoM so placed in order to be projected in the desired direction. Like bouncing on a trampoline - if feet are underneath the CoM then the trampoliner will go vertically up. If the feet are not underneath then our trampoliner will be projected elsewhere. (Can also kill the bounce by absorbing at just the right time.)

In the case of our skiers MC correctly balanced and managed the pressure for his desired outcome and PV didn't.

And, yes, his skis are clear of the snow (image #1 and last image) so he can place them appropriately for the next turn.

On the bit about skis and rebound...
Ron le Master reckons there are 3 sources of rebound:
1. The ski (but he says it doesn't actually store/release much)
2. The skier muscles being stretched and springing back on release
3. The pole vaulting effect
Ok I'm intrigued to try it out on the groomers, but seems I can't see the tree in the forest: How does one trigger the rebound? Is it the hard edge set at the end of the turn that has been discussed before?
 

geepers

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Ok I'm intrigued to try it out on the groomers, but seems I can't see the tree in the forest: How does one trigger the rebound? Is it the hard edge set at the end of the turn that has been discussed before?

Well, I'd stay out of the trees if learning about rebound. They have no sense of humor and will not move even 1 mm out of the way. ;)

No rebound without grip. Get grip at the right time then no need to go looking - rebound will find you.

This vid, which I've posted frequently recently is highly relevant.

And the groomer footage (1st few seconds) of Benni Walsh getting the skis completely off the snow.

Hesitate to use the term "hard set" as it depends on the snow. In soft snow it has to happen that little bit slower and smoother but the good news is that it's often easier to establish grip.
 

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