Am I on the right skis?

[Hamid S]

Hi everyone,

First, a little about me:
I recently switched from transitioning by extension to transition-by-flexion, which has worked out wonderfully. I also opened up my stance to hip-wide which has also been quite helpful.

Next,I tried to increasing ski edge angles for improved carving vs. skidding, by working on angulation and counter balancing. That is where my progress has been slower.

For a while, I tried finding and using the underfoot ball-of-the-big-toe on the new outside ski, and ball-of-the-pinkie-toe on the new inside ski to initiate the new carved turn. However, the result was ambiguous and inconsistent. Also, what I realized was that looking for, and utilizing, those pressure points delayed the tipping of the skis on edge until pretty close to the apex of the turn, especially with shorter radius turns.

My home resort is Snow Summit in SoCal where conditions go from icy groomed runs in the beginning of the day to chopped up wet crud by late morning.

So, I decided to forego working on underfoot pressure points and instead concentrate on tipping the skis more aggressively right after the transition. In other words, I tried to 'show the bases of my skis uphill' or whatever the correct terminology is for that, which made a marked improvement to both achieving greater edge angles and better counter-balancing. I figured once I got better at carving by use of better edge angles and more effective counter-balancing, I could revisit utilizing those underfoot pressure points to refine my carving skills to the next level. However, given the aforementioned snow conditions, I do experience loss of carving action into skidding from time to time.

Now, I'm wondering if I'm on the right skis for the job at hand?
I currently ski on Salomon X-wing Tornado Ti's in 166 cm length, which came from the factory with Z-12 demo or system (not sure which) bindings.
The specs are:
Tip/Waist/Tail: 120x79x106
Turn Radius: 15.6M
Total weight on the bathroom scale: 16 lbs for the pair
Stiffness: don't know

For those who don't know what they look like I will upload an image shortly.

Finally, considering the above, am I using an appropriate set of skis for what I'm trying to achieve? Or would I benefit from switching to something different in length, width, side-cut, stiffness, profile, weight, etc?

All input would be greatly appreciated.

TIA

 

[geepers]

Maybe provide some more info:
1. Video of you skiing - there's a whole host of technique related reasons for skidding
2. Condition of snow when skidding occurs - morning ice and afternoon slush can make for tricky conditions. Does the skidding occur more in the hard stuff, in the slush, or is it spread through your day?
3. Condition of the skis - like when were they last serviced? Sharp edges can make a considerable difference in the firmer conditions.
4. Your size, especially your weight?
5. Situation in which this is happening? Wide or short turns? Blue groomers?

A rough opinion: I would have thought that a set of Tornados with good edges would have been up for the job. The length should be fine unless you are a larger person. I take it these are from a few years ago? If that's the case here's a link to some reviews...
https://www.evo.com/outlet/skis/salomon-x-wing-tornado-ti-z12-bindings

 

[HDSkiing]

Great that you are trying to get that next level!

Try not to get caught up on skidding vs carving in various terrain, turn shape and snow conditions, it’s going to happen. Of course it can be frustrating if you are seeking those pure carved turns, but keep in mind there are so many variables beyond simply tipping the skis, widening the stance, flexing or extending, etc. etc.

Out of all of those variables the skis matter least. Powder skis will carve as will the worn out lower end rentals with rusting edges that haven’t been tuned in two seasons.

No doubt that some skis will be better at laying down trenches, but all the other inputs have to be there. Work on those inputs, get some MA and work on the skills you are weakest on first. At some point it will come together for you, then look at the ski.

 

[Hamid S]

Maybe provide some more info:
1. Video of you skiing - there's a whole host of technique related reasons for skidding
2. Condition of snow when skidding occurs - morning ice and afternoon slush can make for tricky conditions. Does the skidding occur more in the hard stuff, in the slush, or is it spread through your day?
3. Condition of the skis - like when were they last serviced? Sharp edges can make a considerable difference in the firmer conditions.
4. Your size, especially your weight?
5. Situation in which this is happening? Wide or short turns? Blue groomers?

A rough opinion: I would have thought that a set of Tornados with good edges would have been up for the job. The length should be fine unless you are a larger person. I take it these are from a few years ago? If that's the case here's a link to some reviews...
https://www.evo.com/outlet/skis/salomon-x-wing-tornado-ti-z12-bindings

Hi geepers,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I'm going to do my best to respond to your inquiries:
1) I don't have a video for MA taken after I've implemented some of the knowledge gained from this wonderful site. But this link is to my1st post here requesting MA:
https://www.pugski.com/threads/what-should-i-work-on-next.14218/#post-329145

Watching that video again, it feels like those were my happier skiing days. I guess my ignorance was truly a bliss.
But kidding aside, I truly appreciate what I've learned here and am quite happy with the resulting improvements. I will post a new video as soon as I manage to get one.
BTW, I am skiing on those same Tornados in that video.

2) Skidding occurs occasionally in icy or slushy conditions. I seem to carve OK on freshly groomed runs that are not frozen. However, I'm having a hard time getting the inside ski to track but I know that has more to do with lack of proper technique than what skis I'm on.

3) Skis were Infrared waxed at REI not too long ago, at which time I was told the edges were sharp. As far as edge angles, I have no idea! Didn't even know until recently that ski edges can be tuned to different angles.

4) I'm 5'7' and 165 lbs.

5) Skidding happens mostly during short turns, may be because I tip the skis on edge too quickly and without sufficient counter balancing. It is mostly the outside ski that skids. Between greens, blues or easy blacks, I don't think the steepness has a direct impact on when my outside ski starts to skid.

Of course most of what I'm reporting may turn out to be my perceptions rather than the facts once there is video for all of us to watch.

 

[Hamid S]

Great that you are trying to get that next level!

Try not to get caught up on skidding vs carving in various terrain, turn shape and snow conditions, it’s going to happen. Of course it can be frustrating if you are seeking those pure carved turns, but keep in mind there are so many variables beyond simply tipping the skis, widening the stance, flexing or extending, etc. etc.

Out of all of those variables the skis matter least. Powder skis will carve as will the worn out lower end rentals with rusting edges that haven’t been tuned in two seasons.

No doubt that some skis will be better at laying down trenches, but all the other inputs have to be there. Work on those inputs, get some MA and work on the skills you are weakest on first. At some point it will come together for you, then look at the ski.

HDSkiing,
Thanks for the reaffirmation that my skis are the least of my worries. I thought so myself but around here it never hurts to ask.
I will continue to try and hone my skills until things come together and click, one said optimistically!

 

[Plai]

@Hamid S sounds like you might be introducing rotory movements as you think you're tipping the skis. Just tip the skis and apply more or less pressure without twisting. Make sure you're tipping the new inside ski before the new outside ski and then stand on the new outside ski. The new inside ski was the old outside ski. It needs to be released before the new outside ski is engaged. Trust the new outside ski to make the turn for you. Let the skis do the work.

Good luck. And yes, mid-high 70s waisted skis with short radius should be perfect... What you already have.

 

[Corgski]

Hi everyone,
For a while, I tried finding and using the underfoot ball-of-the-big-toe on the new outside ski, and ball-of-the-pinkie-toe on the new inside ski to initiate the new carved turn. However, the result was ambiguous and inconsistent. Also, what I realized was that looking for, and utilizing, those pressure points delayed the tipping of the skis on edge until pretty close to the apex of the turn, especially with shorter radius turns.
TIA

I can see this as being useful as an exercise but outside of that would this be generally helpful? You are overriding your motor system here, when I walk or run I do not usually focus on the interaction of my foot and the shoe unless there is a problem, I am on different terrain or wearing new shoes. I prefer to think of what I want my skis and edges to do, and let my motor system manage the intermediary stuff.

Couple of things I have found useful to improve my edge grip in icy conditions:
Early weight transfer. Aggressively lighten/lift the old outside/new inside ski before starting to tip the skis off the old edges to the new. This way most of your weight will be on your new outside ski before the new big toe edge is engaged.
Improve counterbalancing with either hands on hips (angry mother) drill or Schlopy drill. Helps separate at the hips as opposed to bending at the waist, pushing on the outside hip with your hand helps improve edge angles.

 

[geepers]

Hi geepers,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I'm going to do my best to respond to your inquiries:
1) I don't have a video for MA taken after I've implemented some of the knowledge gained from this wonderful site. But this link is to my1st post here requesting MA:
https://www.pugski.com/threads/what-should-i-work-on-next.14218/#post-329145

Watching that video again, it feels like those were my happier skiing days. I guess my ignorance was truly a bliss.
But kidding aside, I truly appreciate what I've learned here and am quite happy with the resulting improvements. I will post a new video as soon as I manage to get one.
BTW, I am skiing on those same Tornados in that video.

2) Skidding occurs occasionally in icy or slushy conditions. I seem to carve OK on freshly groomed runs that are not frozen. However, I'm having a hard time getting the inside ski to track but I know that has more to do with lack of proper technique than what skis I'm on.

3) Skis were Infrared waxed at REI not too long ago, at which time I was told the edges were sharp. As far as edge angles, I have no idea! Didn't even know until recently that ski edges can be tuned to different angles.

4) I'm 5'7' and 165 lbs.

5) Skidding happens mostly during short turns, may be because I tip the skis on edge too quickly and without sufficient counter balancing. It is mostly the outside ski that skids. Between greens, blues or easy blacks, I don't think the steepness has a direct impact on when my outside ski starts to skid.

Of course most of what I'm reporting may turn out to be my perceptions rather than the facts once there is video for all of us to watch.

Those skis should not be an issue.

The icy and slushy conditions are often challenging - they tend to expose any weaknesses in our technique. They require us to get the skis properly engaged and creating a platform in the snow that will support us in changing direction. When the snow is more forgiving - allows the ski to penetrate and create a nice groove so support is provided up more of the base of the ski without undue changes in friction/drag - then we can get away without technique being so precise.

Short turns are probably the most challenging. First up all the things that have to happen for the ski to engage have to happen in a compressed time frame. Secondly, it doesn't take a very tight turn to exceed the ski's turn radius. At which point more of the steering has to happen by twisting or pivoting as the ski will not follow the intended path. You may have seen vids of world class skiers like Reilly McGlashan carving short radius turns. It's wonderful stuff but note that Reilly is about 30 y/o, has retained the flexibility of youth, skies at the highest level two seasons per year and is getting great edge angles with his lateral movement.

Notwithstanding the situation with your mountain (lift line vs time to complete the run) I would suggest a focus on medium or wide radius turns where there's a little more time for things to happen. Keep the terrain gentle as you will pick up a lot of speed carving turns. Here's a vid you may find useful.

 

[Hamid S]

I can see this as being useful as an exercise but outside of that would this be generally helpful? You are overriding your motor system here, when I walk or run I do not usually focus on the interaction of my foot and the shoe unless there is a problem, I am on different terrain or wearing new shoes. I prefer to think of what I want my skis and edges to do, and let my motor system manage the intermediary stuff.

Couple of things I have found useful to improve my edge grip in icy conditions:
Early weight transfer. Aggressively lighten/lift the old outside/new inside ski before starting to tip the skis off the old edges to the new. This way most of your weight will be on your new outside ski before the new big toe edge is engaged.
Improve counterbalancing with either hands on hips (angry mother) drill or Schlopy drill. Helps separate at the hips as opposed to bending at the waist, pushing on the outside hip with your hand helps improve edge angles.

Corgski,
Thank you for pointing out the significance of not getting bogged down with concentrating on sensory concepts that might become counterproductive given one's skill level and comfort zone.
I was thinking the same myself but some affirmation is always helpful!

 

[Hamid S]

Notwithstanding the situation with your mountain (lift line vs time to complete the run) I would suggest a focus on medium or wide radius turns where there's a little more time for things to happen. Keep the terrain gentle as you will pick up a lot of speed carving turns. Here's a vid you may find useful.

Agreed.
I will spend more time practicing wider turn carving on easier slopes, particularly during my upcoming trip to Mammoth later this month.
I might even manage a new video clip for a more up to date MA request.

 

[Swede]

Ski model has a few years, but was liked by a lot of people. There were two TI models, one white and one black which had the ”powerline” guts. That was a great ski. As mentioned edges need to be maintained regularly for a ski to ski well on hard surfaces. A layer of wax every now and then also nice. Scrape and brush (keep them clean) the base. Especially when on dirty old snow.

 

[François Pugh]

A narrower ski would be more helpful, but that's not your problem; you should be able to do it easily on those skis.

Your problem is an ingrained movement pattern that is almost the opposite of clean arc-2-arc carving. I've seen that pattern in many skiers. It has likely been taught to many new and intermediate skiers to provide easy access to speed control. It is one (of many) variations on the short radius turn.

The best way to break the pattern is to put your brain on a new track. Go to a green run and practice making clean railroad tracks by just tipping your skis, no unweighting, no twisting the skis, just tipping and being smooth. Forget about turning while doing this railroad track exercise; just let the skis go where they want to. Also forget about keeping the skis the same distance apart, and let them spread more in the turns they decide to make and don't stop them from coming together between turns.

 

[Jjmd]

I disagree that when learning to railroad track your skis ,you shouldn’t worry about the consistency of how far apart your skis are. If you just passively let them come together and separate you run the risk of developing an inadvertent a- frame, or slight fudge at the apex of the turn. Once this becomes a default move it is hard to cure. . Not maintaining a consistent stance can also enable too much tip lead, which hinders effective carving. When I am coaching or instructing on carving and laying down trenches, my main focus in on having the skier/racer maintaining consistent ski separation, especially at the apex of the turn. Once you get the speeds north of 40-50 mph, sure the skis change the amount of separation at different parts of the turn, but that clearly is not relevant here.
Good luck in your endeavor.

 

[François Pugh]

We can agree to disagree. When in the apex at a high edge angle, because your inside ski is near your crotch and your outside leg is almost fully extended your skis will be far apart. You should not have your skis that far apart at transition.

 

[Jjmd]

I agree your skis will be further apart on a vertical axis due to the long leg ,short leg phenomenon at the apex, but if extrapolated to the horizontal axis, they would be roughly the same distance apart. I should have made a distinction between the horizontal and vertical when talking about stance width.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Hi everyone,


For a while, I tried finding and using the underfoot ball-of-the-big-toe on the new outside ski, and ball-of-the-pinkie-toe on the new inside ski to initiate the new carved turn. However, the result was ambiguous and inconsistent. Also, what I realized was that looking for, and utilizing, those pressure points delayed the tipping of the skis on edge until pretty close to the apex of the turn, especially with shorter radius turns.TIA

Check out Sean Warman's foot movement:
His suggestion to raise the little toe side of the outside foot rather than pressure the big toe ball of foot side lets you have a relaxed outside leg as opposed to the stiff one that occurs when you pressure the inside.

 

[geepers]

I agree your skis will be further apart on a vertical axis due to the long leg ,short leg phenomenon at the apex, but if extrapolated to the horizontal axis, they would be roughly the same distance apart. I should have made a distinction between the horizontal and vertical when talking about stance width.

The article is worth reading. https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/blog/stance-how-wide-is-too-wide

 

[James]

Check out Sean Warman's foot movement:
His suggestion to raise the little toe side of the outside foot rather than pressure the big toe ball of foot side lets you have a relaxed outside leg as opposed to the stiff one that occurs when you pressure the inside.

If you just pressure the big toe side you're not tipping the foot. So, isn't it a moot point if talking aboit tipping?

 

[Kneale Brownson]

The sensations and muscular activity differ. Raising the little toe side in the boot engages the arch without making it stiff..