Alterra CEO doesn't want Ikon to ruin resorts.

[Gary Stolt]

I have an Ikon pass as well. It is a very good price. The hidden cost is a more crowded mountain and a Vail and Alterra duopoly controlling 75 percent of ski ticket revenue. I would prefer to pay more for what I would think is a better mountain experience without it, and I understand why people such as yourself love it. It has become a very divisive issue as even on an amazing ski today at Solitude you hear people bitching about Ikon while others are talking about how great it is.

We'll see what happens. I don't think the current situation is sustainable. I feel confident either they will make big changes, raise the pass price significantly or some partner resorts will drop out and go it alone. But we will see, I doubt any of us on PugSki have any say in the matter

As long as the Ikon pass is offered I too will buy it. Doesn't mean I like what is happening, but I'll be buying it. Have a good and safe ski season!

I think some good points here.
Would I pay more for no crowds, or not having to wait too long in lift lines? YES
Will there be changes made in the future? YES
Do we have a say in what changes will be made? Only with the money we spend at the resorts and with the resorts we choose to ski.
If Ski resorts see an increase in revenue after joining the IKON pass, I think they will put up with some lift lines - they have to find a sustainable balance.
If the IKON brings more skiers but less profit, changes will come. They have to be careful though - raising prices have a tendency to drive skiers away.
Now for the dilemma,
I don't understand how Vail can sell a season pass to all or many of their resorts for $600-$900 and yet the longest lines at the resort are at the ticket window, where you can buy a single day pass for the best part of $200.

 

[SpikeDog]

I'll dip my toe into this.

What I haven't heard mentioned is why all this backlash against the IKON pass and I never heard a peep about the Mountain Collective, at least in terms of ruining areas for the locals. I had the MTC for 4 years, and I'm certainly not the only one who has recently switched to IKON. How does that add up into the 14% additional traffic? Probably takes a chunk of that number and puts it in context. I've heard that 14% more skiers was Jackson Hole's IKON estimate too, as well as Deer Valley. Keeping in mind DV wasn't on the MTC, so it might be a purer statistic for Deer Valley.

I'm certainly old enough to remember the 1 hour lift line waits from the 70's, which temper my notion of "how bad things have gotten". In fact, the only thing I think that has gotten worse over the last ~50 years is no more free parking. That and stretch pants going out of style.

.

 

[OldJarhead]

My first ski pass was at Camelback in the ‘70s. We learned the ONLY way to ski at Camelback was to be in the front of the lift line as soon as it opened. We skied till about noon and then drove home when the lift lines got to be about an hour long.

All the people complaining about the long lines conveniently forget the ski season 2 years ago was horrible. I don’t think the top of Ski Santa Fe was open till maybe around Christmas or a little later. This season the top of Ski Santa Fe will open early next week. Which is similar to last year’s season.

All the slopes at Aspen were not open in January of that year and Taos was not exactly "great" that January.

I don’t remember any long lines at any of the areas around SLC that year.

Long lift lines are not going away unless the snow sucks.

But, there is a simple solution.

Get old so you can ski any day you like - which for most intelligent old people is ski DURING THE WEEK, not on National Holidays, and DO NOT ski during Spring Break. Especially when the Texans come to Ski Santa Fe.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I don’t remember any long lines at any of the areas around SLC that year.

17/18 was one of the most crowded years I’ve ever seen at PCMR, despite the modest snow conditions. Last season (18/19) was far less crowded there- presumably because the Ikon attracted the bulk of the tourons to DV, Altabird, Solitude, etc. From my point of view Ikon has been a blessing and I wish them every success. Unless you live in Park City and ski very often it makes much more sense to get an Ikon over Epic. They’ve pretty much sewed up Utah!

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Yup it's all relative. I have multiple clients that have 6(some maybe 7) figures worth of shoes in their closet.

In the few times I've been to Snowbird I've only seen the Seven Summits line used by a few of people.

Sure enough - everything is relative and we assign value to wha brings us enjoyment. I would NEVER buy a pair of Jimmy Choo shoes because they are just too expensive, Now ski boots on the other hand .... and multiple sets of skis ... and way too many ski jackets ... now that's sexy!

 

[OldJarhead]

17/18 was one of the most crowded years I’ve ever seen at PCMR, despite the modest snow conditions. Last season (18/19) was far less crowded there- presumably because the Ikon attracted the bulk of the tourons to DV, Altabird, Solitude, etc. From my point of view Ikon has been a blessing and I wish them every success. Unless you live in Park City and ski very often it makes much more sense to get an Ikon over Epic. They’ve pretty much sewed up Utah!

My biggest problem at PCMR was I couldn't remember where my skis were (I think I spent 20 minutes walking back and forth). Much longer than any lift line.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I try to put them in the same spots at each of the places I stop on the mountain. I really should have a reserved sticker. Then I could shout at anyone who usurped my place!

 

[dbostedo]

Unless you live in Park City and ski very often it makes much more sense to get an Ikon over Epic.

Or if you really like Snowbasin, or live closer that way that BCC and LCC.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I’m assuming that, in that case, you’d probably want more than the 7 days Epic gives you at Snowbasin. So I guess you’d get a Snowbasin or PowMow season pass. I fear that, sooner or later, both of those will be engulfed - but I hope not!

 

[TonyPlush]

I think one point that gets lost when everyone mentions how awful an Ikon/Epic duopoly is...

A duopoly is still a whole lot better than a monopoly.

I'm thankful for the Ikon pass if for no other reason than to keep Epic in check.

 

[Wasatchman]

I think one point that gets lost when everyone mentions how awful an Ikon/Epic duopoly is...

A duopoly is still a whole lot better than a monopoly.

I'm thankful for the Ikon pass if for no other reason than to keep Epic in check.

Ehh. That's like saying the good thing about losing an arm is you still have the other one.

Not cool with the duopoly but it is what it is.

 

[James]

Ehh. That's like saying the good thing about losing an arm is you still have the other one.

Not cool with the duopoly but it is what it is.

Well the good thing about having two arms is you can use one to cut the other off.

 

[David Chaus]

A duopoly is way better than a monopoly. And though the analogy really doesn’t fit, I’d much rather have one arm than none.

A world of mostly independently owned resorts is just not what we have. I haven’t heard much praise for how the previous multi-resort-owning ski corporations ran things, either. I’m thinking American Ski Company, Powdr, Intrawest, etc. Aspen Ski Corporation being an exception, and perhaps Boyne, and consider that Alterra is a consortium of Aspen Ski Co and KSL, and partnering with Boyne resorts, they are not inherently blood-sucking scumbags any more than past ownership companies.

So while it’s easy to think of Vail as the Evil Empire and Alterra being maybe Not Quite As Evil Empire, it does seem they are utilizing decent enough management decisions to keep people coming back. Certainly the on slope experience is good enough for most people who buy the passes and frequent the resorts.

 

[Wasatchman]

Sure enough - everything is relative and we assign value to wha brings us enjoyment. I would NEVER buy a pair of Jimmy Choo shoes because they are just too expensive, Now ski boots on the other hand .... and multiple sets of skis ... and way too many ski jackets ... now that's sexy!

How about a stiletto ski boot? Now that would be sexy! And otherworldly if you could somehow ski with them.

 

[KingGrump]

How about a stiletto ski boot? Now that would be sexy!

Ask and thou shalt receive.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

How about a stiletto ski boot? Now that would be sexy! And otherworldly if you could somehow ski with them.

I do not have the skill set for that. I have stilettos for evening wear; they are just not of the Jimmy Choo clan. But how ‘bout those heel lifts!!!

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Ask and thou shalt receive.

View attachment 86463

These would go quite nicely with the stretch pants in the photograph above! Though an orange or hot pink would be better!

 

[Brian Finch]

Grumpy with Ikon currently: customer service can’t seem to help get the college discount for the nanny & their validation service “does not accept phone calls”.

 

[Decreed_It]

This debate is fascinating to me. Economics is a 'soft' "science" because, well, Humans. Us skier-people humans want what we want, right? And - there is a real, probably emotional/nostalgic/personal distrust of the large, non-human EvilCorp. Our comments illuminate this.

Would I pay more for no crowds, or not having to wait too long in lift lines? YES
Will there be changes made in the future? YES
Do we have a say in what changes will be made? Only with the money we spend at the resorts and with the resorts we choose to ski.

We don't want megaCorps "ruining" our ski experiences. Some of us are willing to pay for that privilege. Ironic? MegaCorp knows this. Hence the pass products. Which make us "feel" like our ski experience is being "ruined".

Patscherkofel

Skied there last season - authenticity oozing out all over everywhere. Family hill. Kids' race team gettin' it done. So, so awesome, loved it. Inexpensive relative to NA resorts. Feels like (there's that word again!) some MegaCorp multi-pass owned NA resorts try to sell the Euro vibe, and fail. You can't market-make authenticity. But you can "ruin" it! Plenty of true authenticity at NA's best Mtns - and a legitimate backlash "Don't RUIN this awesomeness! Look at this photo from 1955!"

I think one point that gets lost when everyone mentions how awful an Ikon/Epic duopoly is...

A duopoly is still a whole lot better than a monopoly.

Ehh. That's like saying the good thing about losing an arm is you still have the other one.

Not cool with the duopoly but it is what it is.

If anything the people who stand to feel aggrieved are the owners of small feeder hills who aren't bought by one of the duopoly and therefore have to thrive without the loss leader subsidy.

It feels good to know the people who you buy from. Local Farmer, local businesses are popular. The localism wave isn't limited to your ski hill or surf break, it influences your desire to buy. Limited options suck and you see consolidation in just about every industry. Tech. iPhone or Android. WalMart has killed how many local businesses over the years?

If the IKON brings more skiers but less profit, changes will come. They have to be careful though - raising prices have a tendency to drive skiers away.
Now for the dilemma,
I don't understand how Vail can sell a season pass to all or many of their resorts for $600-$900 and yet the longest lines at the resort are at the ticket window, where you can buy a single day pass for the best part of $200.

Humans do weird stuff.

why all this backlash against the IKON pass and I never heard a peep about the Mountain Collective, at least in terms of ruining areas for the locals.

Feels like MC was the anti-pass - the Co-op vs. MegaCorp play. No clue if that's true, or about the organization, money behind MC. We did those last year, didn't this year - local pass and we're headed to Mtns across the mega-pass spectrum (AltaBird, Steamboat, Telluride), will use multi-day discounts at those, bundle with a travel package kind of thing.

So while it’s easy to think of Vail as the Evil Empire and Alterra being maybe Not Quite As Evil Empire, it does seem they are utilizing decent enough management decisions to keep people coming back. Certainly the on slope experience is good enough for most people who buy the passes and frequent the resorts.

"Good enough for who its for" is what you get from MegaCorp, and at the end of the day it's the almighty dollar that drives MegaCorp's decisions. And ours! When the market speaks - backlash, boycott, or bonaza - we're all going to modify our consumption behaviors, and MegaCorp will modify their offerings and sales behaviors.

I like my capitalism personal, hence tend toward the anti-MegaCorp crowd. Being honest with myself - because it "feels" better.

 

[Eleeski]

at the end of the day it's the almighty dollar that drives MegaCorp's decisions. And ours!

I disagree with this philosophy. The prime driver of many corporations or people is not money. In econ classes, the ball bearing factory was the simplified example of profit driven business (who wants ball bearings?). Certainly a winery, ski resort, art gallery, and lots of other enterprises that are driven by passion will not respond in a way that a textbook can rationally analyze. Most people choose jobs that suit their interests, abilities and values over just the salary. To be sure, decisions must be made to make enough money to survive - either as a business or a person. But that's just one factor in the decision making process.

NONE of the business owners I know are in it just for the money. Most feel their products are of value to society. Some have a strong attachment to their employees. For some, it's just a fun business. They enjoy the hard work. Really! Make enough money to survive is the financial goal - cool if they do better.

KSL invested in entertainment properties throughout southern California. I patronized a few of them and found them to be reasonable, well run and gave me enjoyable experiences. I never felt milked out of my money by them. Some of those properties did sell (at a nice profit for KSL) but the new buyers seemed to also have a passion and vision for those properties that overrode pure money considerations. I've had my criticisms of KSL's management of Squaw (open something when it is snowing!) but overall, they have done well. The Alterra deal is interesting but has not seemed to be a money grab. Instead, it has opened a few travel options that I have enjoyed - but the bulk of my days are still at Squaw. It certainly hasn't ruined Squaw for me.

I hope the partner resorts are happy enough with the Ikon pass to continue the association. It widens skiing opportunities - and fun.

Eric