Alterra CEO doesn't want Ikon to ruin resorts.

[Andy Mink]

I am starting to remember why I stopped posting for about 7 months

this is a divisive subject and I feel strongly that the majority here who are not local to one location don’t get it.

I’m going skiing for the first time this year, I was going to get back into the forum again, but I think I’ll just ski rather than discuss (argue) with people who are not present who seem to be experts on a particular hill.
Hope you all have a great season!

I think what we are asking for is proof that IKON (or Epic or MC) are the only factors in what is viewed by locals as degradation of the experience. IKON pass holders are seemingly being blamed for single-handedly dragging down the experience at several areas. That's all well and good but there are just too many other cogs in this machine that impact the final numbers and where they're coming from.

 

[Tricia]

It got worse over the years specially when it was the ONLY resort open very early and very late season that was on the pass. Last few years it was out of control even when the other resorts were open. Just way too crowded even mid week on a normal day.

Doesn't quite square with my experience of skiing A Basin a few times midweek on an epic pass ( admittedly a few years back).

Again I think you oversimplify things by saying Epic pass ruined A Basin. Could it not be that A Basin ruined A Basin by being a kick ass mountain very close to a major expanding city? And once people got to sample it they chose to go there more often. AIUI A Basin only passes have always been affordable so I'm not sure you can point it all at Epic i.e. if people love it they'll stump for a pass. I'll give you early and late season sure - when you're the only place open and free to access for 1000s of metro passholders course you are going to be busy.

I haven't read the last page (yet) because I just got home from a long day and a long drive, but...
Arapahoe Basin was getting worse and worse as people found that they could ski until laaaaate into the season, not to mention the early season turns before other Vail Resorts opened.
Vail offered the $$ to make some major upgrades, but as the years went on, it was almost unbearable to ski in late April/early May because of the Epic pass holders who migrated to A-Basin. We actually considered moving Mother's Day at A-Bay to Loveland because of it, and bumping it a week earlier to avoid the shit show.
But... -A-Basin was the only game in town the second week of May so there is that to add to the Epic enticement.

 

[Tricia]

I feel strongly that the majority here who are not local to one location don’t get it.

You can "feel" anyway you feel, but you should also allow others to feel what they feel.
Also you should understand that many of us have a whole lot more experience with skiing trends, crowding issues and traffic growth because we've been doing it a looooong time.

 

[fatbob]

Also you should understand that many of us have a whole lot more experience with skiing trends, crowding issues and traffic growth because we've been doing it a looooong time.

Quite - this was one of my childhood baseline skiing experiences. 1 hr queues for a TBar or dodgy sideways 2 man chair fairly standard

Snow-stalgia: remember what skiing Cairngorm used to be like?

When skiing Cairngorms we have come so far in terms of technology and comfort on the hill since the birth of snowports.Do you remember how it used to be?!

blog.visitcairngorms.com

 

[TheArchitect]

As long as the Ikon pass is offered I too will buy it. Doesn't mean I like what is happening, but I'll be buying it. Have a good and safe ski season!

You, too! Let there be snow!

 

[Jim Kenney]

Just wanted to add from my humble, anecdotal observations spending three months in UT last year, I think that a lot of the crowds at resorts were Utah locals coming out in greater frequency due to good ski conditions, regardless of what kind of pass they were using.

 

[Jacob]

All this talk of resorts facing a backlash after being ruined (i.e., seeing an increase in customers) reminds me of the saying "nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded."

 

[Started at 53]

You can "feel" anyway you feel, but you should also allow others to feel what they feel.
Also you should understand that many of us have a whole lot more experience with skiing trends, crowding issues and traffic growth because we've been doing it a looooong time.

Yep, clearly I’m not informed! I only ski the same mountain everyday, you all clearly have a better idea than me along with lots of my ski buddies that have been DV pass holders for over a decade

 

[TheArchitect]

I am starting to remember why I stopped posting for about 7 months

this is a divisive subject and I feel strongly that the majority here who are not local to one location don’t get it.

I’m going skiing for the first time this year, I was going to get back into the forum again, but I think I’ll just ski rather than discuss (argue) with people who are not present who seem to be experts on a particular hill.
Hope you all have a great season!

It IS a divisive subject, and when discussing those it helps to be open to all points of view. You're a local to DV. Serious question..how long have you been living there?

 

[TheArchitect]

Just wanted to add from my humble, anecdotal observations spending three months in UT last year, I think that a lot of the crowds at resorts were Utah locals coming out in greater frequency due to good ski conditions, regardless of what kind of pass they were using.

Shhhh. Locals don't want to hear that. Ikon is evil, dontcha know?

 

[jmeb]

Yep, clearly I’m not informed! I only ski the same mountain everyday, you all clearly have a better idea than me along with lots of my ski buddies that have been DV pass holders for over a decade

No one said you weren't informed about DV.

Though @Tricia did imply that the fact she and Phil and many others hear have multiple decades experience working in the ski industry that they might have a broader perspective than someone who has 2 ski seasons, 1 as a local at one hill, under their belt. Whether others find that a reasonable statement or not is up to them.

Yes, you spent a year at DV. Yes you've made some friends there with longer histories and perspectives. I bet there are many on this board and thread that have many times over the number of days as yourself skiing as longtime locals across the SLC area. They may have different opinions than yours. Doesn't make your or any of them wrong, just makes all the opinions highly dependent on someone's own experience.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I thought this forum was dedicated to remaining civil when disagreeing.

Discrediting a person's perspective when they don't agree with you by referring to their personal background is not civil. It is attacking the person, not their view on the subject.

Implying that whatever they think carries less weight than what you think because their experience or credentials are less than yours ... is rude. Doing this disrespects the person and ignores their reasons for holding their view.

Wouldn't it be more civil if the folks in this thread agreed to disagree without trying to overpower opposing thoughts by discrediting the people voicing them?

 

[James]

Quite - this was one of my childhood baseline skiing experiences. 1 hr queues for a TBar or dodgy sideways 2 man chair fairly standard

Lol, yep! I can remember waiting nearly an hour for the gondola at Stowe as a kid.
Liftlines of 30 minutes were pretty standard mid 70's it seems. That would be the Apocalypse today. Plus crappy grooming, or no grooming. Omg, what a nightmare!
Look at the courses they used to race on back then! 1976 Olympics and Klammer, that is one bumpy crappy course.

 

[Jim Kenney]

@Started at 53
Hope you'll stick around. Love the fresh eyes and enthusiasm you bring to the site and our sport.

 

[Tricia]

You can "feel" anyway you feel, but you should also allow others to feel what they feel.

Wouldn't it be more civil if the folks in this thread agreed to disagree without trying to overpower opposing thoughts by discrediting the people voicing them?

That was my point. Understanding that we feel differently about this particular topic

Also you should understand that many of us have a whole lot more experience with skiing trends, crowding issues and traffic growth because we've been doing it a looooong time.

Discrediting a person's perspective when they don't agree with you by referring to their personal background is not civil. It is attacking the person, not their view on the subject.

Implying that whatever they think carries less weight than what you think because their experience or credentials are less than yours ... is rude. Doing this disrespects the person and ignores their reasons for holding their view.

Discrediting? I don't think that is the right word for this situation. I think people are saying, "Calm down, you've spent one(maybe 2) years at DV. Give it time, trends change. We've seen it from spending decades in this sport"

If I were to buy a house on a golf course, dust my clubs off and start playing golf again, I would absolutely reach out to Started at 53 and yield to his experience.

Yes, this is civil and no one is discrediting him. We're just saying, respecting those with more experience is sensible. Respecting others views - two way street.

 

[fatbob]

Wouldn't it be more civil if the folks in this thread agreed to disagree without trying to overpower opposing thoughts by discrediting the people voicing them?

Goes both ways however - a person's thought is not invalid either because they aren't a "local" - see the localism thread.

I'm not even sure this thread is actually "divisive" - all we are asking for is some data to back up assertions. In that respect it's not unlike the average political dialogue.

A Everyone knows grazing has become intolerable because of immigrant wildebeest
B That's interesting have you any data to back that up
A Well 14% of traffic was from immigrant wildebeest
B You're going to have to get a bit more granular for that to mean anything - how do you measure traffic, what adjustments should be made for canibalisation of other large bovine populations who elected to self identify as wildebeest?
A I gnu. 14% is a huge number, you just don't get it


(apologies to the snowboard phobic who might also spot the accidental reference in this post)

 

[fatbob]

Look at the courses they used to race on back then! 1976 Olympics and Klammer, that is one bumpy crappy course.

Patscherkofel

Quite smooth now with modern grooming and would be quite good fun to straightline though nowhere near as steep as modern era courses like BoP. Skied there a couple of times last winter including one morning sharing the T Bar (only lift open in the Inn valley) with a Chinese junior ski team in goggle clogging wet glop.

 

[Ken_R]

Lol, yep! I can remember waiting nearly an hour for the gondola at Stowe as a kid.
Liftlines of 30 minutes were pretty standard mid 70's it seems. That would be the Apocalypse today. Plus crappy grooming, or no grooming. Omg, what a nightmare!
Look at the courses they used to race on back then! 1976 Olympics and Klammer, that is one bumpy crappy course.

Yep.

High speed lifts change that. Less people on the lift line, MANY more people on the slopes.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I have no opinion about Ikon, but I just want to say that I think it's a pretty bold claim to say that Tricia is marginalizing 53 in this thread. I can say from my standpoint that if Ikon is anything like Epic Pass, I can see how the locals would see a change for sure. There are probably a lot of really happy Epic people that weren't here before. Of course there's not really any way to differentiate Epic from everyone else since it is the only pass offered. That's where the Ikon arguments would seem to fail. How can you know who was brought in by the new pass and who wasn't? It doesn't make the changes any less real.

 

[fatbob]

I can say from my standpoint that if Ikon is anything like Epic Pass, I can see how the locals would see a change for sure. There are probably a lot of really happy Epic people that weren't here before. Of course there's not really any way to differentiate Epic from everyone else since it is the only pass offered. That's where the Ikon arguments would seem to fail. How can you know who was brought in by the new pass and who wasn't? It doesn't make the changes any less real.

I can't remember where you are at, Stowe? The analytics are imperfect and IIRC Deer Valley has admitted they don't have any system to accurately track skier numbers anyway (duh!!!). So there is a change and the simple human heuristic is to attritube change to the nearest proximate event. But actually statistically significant change needs to have data cleansed as much as possible and normalised for all other factors if you are trying to prove a causal relationship. Without data you pretty much have "feeling" and that is about it.

The other thing that continues to puzzle me about the whole Epic/Ikon is ruining skiing thing is are overall skier numbers going up, are ski days per person going up, or is there some redistribution of ski days going on (from East to West, around cities etc etc.) If anything the people who stand to feel aggrieved are the owners of small feeder hills who aren't bought by one of the duopoly and therefore have to thrive without the loss leader subsidy.