All things ankles... :)

[razie]

I avoid using overly detailed and complex anatomical, biomechanical and physics based concepts that do not translate well online or on the hill such as referring to the “ankle” rather than the four sub-joints that make up the “ankle”.

Well... the anatomy / biomechanics that you do include is sometimes brand new.

I think this managed to set a new PugSki record: your first post creating new terminology, became the second result (out of 4) in google in only 5 days: google the terminology

 

[Jamt]

An important context w/inside ankle flexion is a slightly weighted inside foot “on the ground”. An important caveat is that this motor pattern is best learned only after an approximate psia level 8 fundamentals have been achieved.

Do you mean that inside ankle flexion should not be learned until psia level 8, or just the "slightly weighted inside foot" part?

 

[JESinstr]

More...

Just to get some clarity... Where, does the relatively new term "Cuff Neutral" fit here?

My two cents is that cuff neutral is when your feet are pulled back underneath to the point where you are in the best position to evenly collapse the arch vs the force you are balancing against (which changes with edging and velocity).

Other thoughts?

 

[Doby Man]

Razie, I don't think I am saying anything new at all, just perhaps how I say it. It just sounds new to folks that focus on the body and ski from the hips.

Jamt, great question. This is about development sequence which is important for increasing the pace of development and avoiding plateaus from poorly integrated movement patterns. It is my opinion that a skier should learn to balance the entire turn on the outside ski before re-introducing the inside ski in an effective way. That way, when the skier starts to place some weight on the inside ski, it doesn't cause then to fall to the inside. The whole point of inside ankle flexion is about what it does to the inside ski therefore the ski needs to be weighted. When we invert the inside ankle over a ski that is leveraged against the snow, the biomechanics of the ankle gives pressure to the ski in three different directions of force compared to that of a "neutral" ankle. 1. Tip the inside ski a tad more than the outside ski which makes it bend more. 2. Converge the inside ski towards the outside ski which gets it upside down early in the turn, and 3. tips the ski forward which puts more pressure on the inside shovel. These forces to the inside ski gives it leverage to allow it to carve just like the outside ski without all the weight that the outside ski gets (or is supposed to get). I feel that if you need the inside ski for balance and support, tackling this pattern may be better saved for after you can ski with complete single foot balance. Single foot balance is the most basic of fundamentals for advanced skiers yet one seemingly ignored in the ranks of many who have gone beyond to learn more refined patterns above it in the skill pyramid which results in plateau. When we learn to ski, we are building a pyramid. There are no shortcuts to building a pyramid.

 

[Jamt]

Razie, I don't think I am saying anything new at all, just perhaps how I say it. It just sounds new to folks that focus on the body and ski from the hips.

Jamt, great question. This is about development sequence which is important for increasing the pace of development and avoiding plateaus from poorly integrated movement patterns. It is my opinion that a skier should learn to balance the entire turn on the outside ski before re-introducing the inside ski in an effective way. That way, when the skier starts to place some weight on the inside ski, it doesn't cause then to fall to the inside. The whole point of inside ankle flexion is about what it does to the inside ski therefore the ski needs to be weighted. When we invert the inside ankle over a ski that is leveraged against the snow, the biomechanics of the ankle gives pressure to the ski in three different directions of force compared to that of a "neutral" ankle. 1. Tip the inside ski a tad more than the outside ski which makes it bend more. 2. Converge the inside ski towards the outside ski which gets it upside down early in the turn, and 3. tips the ski forward which puts more pressure on the inside shovel. These forces to the inside ski gives it leverage to allow it to carve just like the outside ski without all the weight that the outside ski gets (or is supposed to get). I feel that if you need the inside ski for balance and support, tackling this pattern may be better saved for after you can ski with complete single foot balance. Single foot balance is the most basic of fundamentals for advanced skiers yet one seemingly ignored in the ranks of many who have gone beyond to learn more refined patterns above it in the skill pyramid which results in plateau. When we learn to ski, we are building a pyramid. There are no shortcuts to building a pyramid.

Thanks Doby, Agree with most of this.
However, your point #3 I don't fully agree with. I believe that the inside ankle should be flexed longitudinally as well. This in combination with how the subtalar joint works would imply less pressure on the shovel. I do however believe in shovel pressure, and hence I advocate an inside foot pullback in addition to the inversion and dorsiflexion.

 

[Doby Man]

#3 is key for me. It places what weight we are giving the inside ski to the front and therefore relinquishes the need for hamstring pull back later and further up in the kinetic chain so there is no need to keep contracting that hamstring for that purpose. When you start the turn with this foot position, you are "kept" forward and no need for corrections later in the kinetic path. When you look at the "heel lift" in the pic below, you see how inversion doesn't just tip and turn the foot but also places foot pressure under the outside ball of that foot. For me, pull back is a "correction pattern" I use to show the importance of skiing from the feet and clearing that issue at the foundation of the path of movement. Pull back is a classic kinetic path reversal of using the body to control the ski rather than the foot, and for me, is not ideal.

 

[Jamt]

#3 is key for me. It places what weight we are giving the inside ski to the front and therefore relinquishes the need for hamstring pull back later and further up in the kinetic chain so there is no need to keep contracting that hamstring for that purpose. When you start the turn with this foot position, you are "kept" forward and no need for corrections later in the kinetic path. When you look at the "heel lift" in the pic below, you see how inversion doesn't just tip and turn the foot but also places foot pressure under the outside ball of that foot. For me, pull back is a "correction pattern" I use to show the importance of skiing from the feet and clearing that issue at the foundation of the path of movement. Pull back is a classic kinetic path reversal of using the body to control the ski rather than the foot, and for me, is not ideal.

Since the foot is constricted to move in the lateral direction it is part of a lateral closed kinetic chain. In the fore aft direction the foot and ski can glide quite freely from a neutral position and hence IMO its movement should be controlled in a open chain manner.
If you don't control it the pushing of the little toe side will cause it to slide forward.
The main reason to keep the foot back is to have it in a proper position if the outside ski slips.

 

[Rod9301]

The other reason for pulling the free for back is to be centered at the beginning of the next turn.

This is valid in all turns, including jump turns in steep terrain

 

[markojp]

Backing up and simplifying things a bit, here's one.... (turn the sound off and watch at least once first.)

 

[john petersen]

Just to get some clarity... Where, does the relatively new term "Cuff Neutral" fit here?
My two cents is that cuff neutral is when your feet are pulled back underneath to the point where you are in the best position to evenly collapse the arch vs the force you are balancing against (which changes with edging and velocity).
Other thoughts?

this is one of my FAVORITE vids as it says so much, but is rather subtle. It illustrates to me, that you can dial in versatility to be able to tactically make those moves at will. This can add so much to your skiing. (not using caps here, I made a promise to not over use that, but I am yelling this...)
That movement pattern, arguably, I guess, is an absolute hoot to go out and play with. it revealed several patterns that allowed break throughs for me a couple of seasons back.
mainly, it showed me what being neutral in my boot really meant. It also revealed some dogmatic language that has become all to common and familiar about "staying against the boot cuff" when we ski.....that just aint "it"

I like the notion that learning to use one ski then adding the other as a compliment, then learning to use BOTH in conjunction with one another is also key....this is a great warm up exercise that you can do on every run if you like....try the first 6 turns on the left ski, then the next 6 on the right ski....then add in that "other" ski......


JP

 

[Jamt]

not using caps here, I made a promise to not over use that, but I am yelling this

JP

There are other ways than using caps on the style bar.