• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

All mountain: Rossi Hero Plus vs White Out

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,455
Not sure if I get your meaning on this point. Are you saying on a slalom ski, what pulls or initiates a turn when on edge is more than just the tip, its the tip plus some length of the front half of the ski?
Pretty much. Plus a slalom ski has a much narrower tip than say a Rally.
A tip is more than engaging or pulling one into a turn. It has to release. Difficulty releasing will make a ski even more difficult to ski.

IMG_6118.JPG

R-L: The first Rally, 163. 2nd yr Rally 170 13.5m, 14/'15 Blizz Fis Sl >13m, 17/'18 Fischer fis sl, Rossi Hero Masters 180/21m 17/'18, Dynastar Course ti 183 13/'14(?)

Note the difference of the Rally's to the current hammer head style Rally. (The one on the far right is just at a different angle so the side profile looks different, it's not) The early Rally's had a tip shape very similar to a slalom ski.
Imo, that makea it very versatile. Those Rally's were actually excellent skis for most people. The issue was more for heavier skiers they didn't have enough beef, so it required skiing it more delicately. An advanced technique that can also be somewhat annoying. What would have been better is to make a version of the same ski beefed up. Like make a 170 and a 173 where the 173 is for jeavier/more aggressive skiers. The length numbers just make it easier to tell them apart. Instead everyone makes 3 different models of skis.

A slalom ski has kind of an odd job. Racing slalom turns are almost never fully carved. Basically it's on the edges and off quickly, usually from the fall line on or even later. As soon as enough redirection occurs they are off the edge. One thing about that is the ski is often at a huge edge angle when it engages, increases, then it's released.
A huge hammerhead tip would be a disaster for slalom racing because at large edge angles it would bite so much it would impede forward progress, hook up too much and shoot the racer where they didn't want to go. Worse than that, ouside ski hooks up, shoots across the inside ski, blocks it and the skier breaks their leg.

The hole in the Fischer is supposed to not only lighten the tip but allow a little twist to release/engage more easily. One can do that also with internal construction.

The Rally used to be a no brainer recommendation for intermediate to non agressive advanced skiers. Now it's not.

That Rossi 180/21m is actually really good at short turns. I wish it had the tip of the Dynastar next to it. Make the thing a little longer, don't run the sidecut that far up. Would make it much more versatile in moguls and junky snow. It tends to plow. I've owned two excellent skis with that type of tip and both could be better without it. The other was the Fire Arrow 84 edt evo.
 

ScottB

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 29, 2016
Posts
2,166
Location
Gloucester, MA
I went online and found a pic of the 2019 Head Rally. I thought you were saying one of your Rally's had the wide tip. I can see what you are taling about now. I would call it a "blunt" tip versus a "pointed" tip. Semantics. Now I get how the tip will plow. Your Rossi Hero Masters in your pic have the "blunt" tip shape. The two carvers I recently demo's didn't have blunt tips, but the K2 was closer to blunt than the Fischer's. I didn't notice any negative from the K2 tip. Here are some pic's to show what is being discussed.

2019 Head Rally's with blunt tip shape.

Snap5.jpg


K2 Super Chargers
Snap6.jpg

Fischer Curv DTX
Snap9.jpg
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,455
It's also that the widest part of the ski is up on the tip curve.
They need to be seen in person. Huge difference between 1st gen and subsequent Rally's.
135,76,114 @170cm - current Head Rally.
131, 76, 109 @170 - 2nd year Rally. (Pretty sure 1st, 2nd yrs were same= 1st gen)

The Fischer has quite a nice tip. But, good god the tip protector -poor, and could you just make the end of the ski curved instead of angled?
We had this discussion at the shop the other night. The other ski that has a nice tip shape was the Salomon blah blah piste ski. Don't remember the model.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
6,317
Location
Denver, CO
I went online and found a pic of the 2019 Head Rally. I thought you were saying one of your Rally's had the wide tip. I can see what you are taling about now. I would call it a "blunt" tip versus a "pointed" tip. Semantics. Now I get how the tip will plow. Your Rossi Hero Masters in your pic have the "blunt" tip shape. The two carvers I recently demo's didn't have blunt tips, but the K2 was closer to blunt than the Fischer's. I didn't notice any negative from the K2 tip. Here are some pic's to show what is being discussed.

2019 Head Rally's with blunt tip shape.

View attachment 68994

K2 Super Chargers
View attachment 68995
Fischer Curv DTX
View attachment 68996

The problem with 2D pictures of these skis is that it makes it hard for your brain to wrap around what happens when the ski is put on edge. As @James noted previously, the widest portion of the tip is far up the curving tip. But for the Rally it's not just the fact that the widest portion occurs far up the tip, it's also that Head chose to actually increase the sidecut (decrease the radius) at the very nose of the ski. You should note how the curvature of the sidecut actually increases in the tip area. This is a liability when the skis are tipped to higher edge angles, when the skis are held close together (moguls), and when the skis are used in cut-up/cruddy conditions.
 

Dakine

Far Out
Inactive
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
1,155
Location
Tip of the Mitt
I spent all day today on my White Outs.
Typical spring groomer day, hard groomed transitioning into great carving base with slush on top.
Early on, when it was hard, I would rather have been skiing my Heros.
But as soon as it softened a bit the White Outs became more fun than an old guy should have.
I see the White Outs as a cheater GS ski with an extra 7mm stuck in the middle so you don't boot out in slushy snow.
My 176's with a 15m radius make me turn more than the 18m Heros but they were an absolute hoot today
.The 182's at 16m radius would be a great ski for your quiver I think.
They have a crazy high top end and I guarantee you won't complain about how they carve.
The best thing about the Blossom shape is how easily the tails release the turn compared to the Heros.
The sweet spot is about twice the size on the White Outs and they don't try to suck you into a tail back, decreasing radius death spiral.

The OP was interested in something slalom like.
I’m surprised at how well the White Outs work when I expected them to be limited by the radius.
If you don’t loo down it doesn’t seem to be a problem.
 

ScottB

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 29, 2016
Posts
2,166
Location
Gloucester, MA
Limited in what way by the radius? short turns or large turns?

"If you don't loo down" means? I am asking because I am interested, not picking on you. ogsmile
 
Thread Starter
TS
Alan Linsley

Alan Linsley

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
Skier
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Posts
17
Location
Vancouver/Whistler
Hi there,
Dakine, that's actually a super helpful comment, I am slightly skeptical about the White Out as a replacement for SL skis, as the radius is a few m longer. I kind of feel that my dissatisfaction with the hero Plus was due to the longer radius (although the length surely had something to do with it as well).
So are you saying that the White out is more nimble than the numbers suggest?
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,455
Pretty sure he's saying the numbers suggest the White Out has too much sidecut.

I’m surprised at how well the White Outs work when I expected them to be limited by the radius.
If you don’t loo down it doesn’t seem to be a problem.

Is that supposed to say "If you don't look down..."?
Meaning, if you don't look you wouldn't think it has so much shape?
 

Dakine

Far Out
Inactive
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
1,155
Location
Tip of the Mitt
Pretty sure he's saying the numbers suggest the White Out has too much sidecut.



Is that supposed to say "If you don't look down..."?
Meaning, if you don't look you wouldn't think it has so much shape?


Ya, I fat thumbed that one.
Radius and length don’t tell the whole story of how a ski actually works on a given skier.
There is a reason White Outs are in the quiver of some of Pugskis best skiers (eg. Helluva Skier)
There is something different about these skis probably due to the shape, core and flex distribution.
I certainly wouldn’t recommend them to anyone who isn’t a strong carver.
I now have Blossom Lust, a much worse condition than Kastle Craving, and am trying to rationalize why I just passed up a pair of their 23m masters gs skis on eBay for $350.
 

ScottB

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 29, 2016
Posts
2,166
Location
Gloucester, MA
I have a hero elite plus in 182cm reserved to demo for tomorrow at Sunday River. I will see for myself about the ski. I will report back with my impressions
 

Dakine

Far Out
Inactive
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
1,155
Location
Tip of the Mitt
I searched back for something.
This is Heluva Skier's travel quiver.
I got the White Outs after checking with him.
He ain't wrong.

The list is:
  • Fischer Motive 95, 180
  • Fischer WC Master, 188
  • Fischer WC SL, 165
  • Blossom White Out, 176
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,455
just passed up a pair of their 23m masters gs skis on eBay for $350.
Yeah... The Rossi 21m/180 is a nice ski. I'd love to try the Blossom.
So, isn't there a Blossom like the White Out with a little less sidecut?
What is the Montreal/ebay site of the dealer?
 
Last edited:

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
6,317
Location
Denver, CO
Yeah... The Rossi 21m/180 is a nice ski. I'd love to try the Blossom.
So, isn't there a Blossom like the White Out with a little less sidecut?
What is the Montreal/ebay site of the dealer?

Blossom Wind Shear (but no metal)

Griffin town
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,605
Location
PNW aka SEA
I'm really confused by the slalom skis not really intended to carve comment above. The do and they are. Nice soft spring days at the hill last week, one half day on a monster 88, second half on a Kore 105, yesterday on a fis ISL RD. All were really fun. The SL was interesting in regards to pressure management, but the feedback was amazing. Thought I had the wrong ski for the day before the first run, but they were incredibly fun
 

ScottB

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 29, 2016
Posts
2,166
Location
Gloucester, MA
I demo'd the Rossi Hero Elite Ti in 182 cm yesterday at Sunday River, ME. Interesting ski but it was not to my liking. Its not for me. I was in slightly firm snow in the morning and then softer snow as the 45 deg day went on. Mostly groomers, some glades, and packed powder tending to cream cheese snow. Me, 6'4". 240lb expert.

The ski wants to make short radius turns, even at 182 cm it wants to turn. That I liked. When the snow was firm and packed it was good and I liked the ski. When the snow was scraped and boiler, there wasn't enough edge grip to hold the short radius turn and the skis slid out every time. Sharper edges might have fixed that, but these were decently sharp. A lighter skier may have better results than me. I skied the same run, White Heat on my 175cm Rossi Radical Slant nose 9S slalom skis (non-FIS race slalom, 14 m radius) and I had no problem making short radius carves on the boiler, it held well.

On softer snow, the wide tips of the Hero Elite got deflected all over the place. The ski is med-stiff at best and was just too soft to push the snow around. The snow was pushing the ski around and I was on HIGH ALERT all day long. Occasionally the ski would cut into the snow and that was dangerous too. The ski couldn't make up its mind how to react to the conditions, or I wasn't on it quite right for what it needed. It didn't take too long before I really wanted to get off the skis and onto something that would perform better. The ski was also very heavy, amazingly so. It might have been the binding and system plate, I don't know. This made the ski less quick and manuevable.

My summary is this ski is a little soft, a little wide, a lot heavy, and trying to be a quick turn slalom ski (15m radius). It just doesn't work. Too many characteristics going in the opposite direction. My 175cm Rossi slalom was much better in the conditions to ski (its much stiffer and a little shorter, it pushes the snow around). My new Fischer Curv DTX was also much better, stiffness was in between the two Rossi's, but it is light and maneuverable with a larger radius. My buddy was on the K2 Super Charger in 182cm and he was having a very good day. That ski is plenty stiff and pushes the snow around (it goes further and blows it up, as well.). Well, I can now cross the Hero Elite off my list for the East coast front side carver.
 

DocGKR

Stuck at work...
Skier
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Posts
1,689
Location
Palo Alto, California
Surprisingly, the Rossi Hero Elite Plus Ti 181 cm (78 mm underfoot w/15m radius) has proven to be one of the most fun all-mountain on-piste skis I have ever used in the Sierra’s. They are NOT a true slalom ski like a 165 cm FIS SL, nor a pseudo GS racer like a Rossi Hero Master or Nordica Doberman GSR; they offer a more relaxed “racer-ish” feel somewhere between a beer league slalom and GS ski, and might be OK for an occasionally foray into relaxed, fun gates, like an easy Nastar. They can handle reasonably big turns on smooth resort groomers, but also zip tightly through moguls, and don’t mind a few inches of fresh snow. They work well on hard morning snow and are not too bothered by afternoon Spring slush. They are proving a lot of fun for this old guy!
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top