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Noodler

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@Noodler, thanks for all those links. That RS 100 is tempting because it's local and I can at least try it on.

Looking at pulling the trigger on some Rossi ZJs before they’re out of stock.

I didn't realize you wanted the stiffer flex. I was targeting my search on 90 flex boots. So you really want a 110-120?
 
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AmyPJ

AmyPJ

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I didn't realize you wanted the stiffer flex. I was targeting my search on 90 flex boots. So you really want a 110-120?
It’s really the only option to get as low of volume as I need. It can be softened and liner replaced.
 

Swiss Toni

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As I said the new B3 & B5 are a “bit more upright” if you look closely at the inside of the cuff in the second photo you can just make out that the forward lean is 14° and the boot board ramp angle is 4°. In order to try and confirm this, I used a screen protractor to measure the forward lean angle of the second boot in the first photo it’s not quite square to the camera, but it’s not far off.

Head_B5_FL.png

These are racing boots, they would be unskiable if they only had 8-9 degrees of forward lean.

It looks like your best option probably is going to be the Lange/Rossi ZJ.
 

Noodler

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It’s really the only option to get as low of volume as I need. It can be softened and liner replaced.

Not sure what/who gave you the impression that only stiffer boots have the lower volume. My son skied in Head Raptor 90 Jr. racing boots that were quite low volume and really skied much stiffer than the 90 would lead you to believe.
 
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AmyPJ

AmyPJ

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OK, I'll restate--that I can find right now. Plus, that's what he told me to look for, so that's what I did :ogbiggrin:
 
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AmyPJ

AmyPJ

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Side by side comparison of how much lower volume the ZJ is. Getting Intuition liners because the race liners are too thin. But wow what a difference!
FF13551D-9F9E-411F-9565-C154AB2DB2FE.jpeg
 

Noodler

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Side by side comparison of how much lower volume the ZJ is. Getting Intuition liners because the race liners are too thin. But wow what a difference! View attachment 91479

Yep, that's a significant difference. How do they feel? Or is it too early to reach any conclusions until you get the replacement liners in them?
 
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AmyPJ

AmyPJ

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Yep, that's a significant difference. How do they feel? Or is it too early to reach any conclusions until you get the replacement liners in them?
So, we baked a pair of Pro Tongue liners I had leftover from a pair of boots I unsuccesfully tried to fill the voids in, and they are TIGHT in the ZJ :golfclap: But the Pro Tongue cuffs are too thick and push my knees way too far forward, which I wasn't feeling with the stock liners. Plus the liners themselves are extremely stiff and uncomfortable, so I have some Race FX on the way which are supposed to be softer and lower volume. The stock liners are, as you know, like a few sheets of paper thick and don't take up enough volume.

That being said, holy cow am I excited. My instep/ankle area is so close to the sides of these boots. They don't feel stupid stiff indoors, but my understanding is they will change quite a bit out in the cold. But, that can be dealt with. So, we'll see how soon I can get them put together and out on the snow. I usually don't like skiing my boots without canting, but I'll take them for a spin just to see how they feel.
 

Noodler

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So, we baked a pair of Pro Tongue liners I had leftover from a pair of boots I unsuccesfully tried to fill the voids in, and they are TIGHT in the ZJ :golfclap: But the Pro Tongue cuffs are too thick and push my knees way too far forward, which I wasn't feeling with the stock liners. Plus the liners themselves are extremely stiff and uncomfortable, so I have some Race FX on the way which are supposed to be softer and lower volume. The stock liners are, as you know, like a few sheets of paper thick and don't take up enough volume.

That being said, holy cow am I excited. My instep/ankle area is so close to the sides of these boots. They don't feel stupid stiff indoors, but my understanding is they will change quite a bit out in the cold. But, that can be dealt with. So, we'll see how soon I can get them put together and out on the snow. I usually don't like skiing my boots without canting, but I'll take them for a spin just to see how they feel.

Yep, Pro Tongue is crazy stiff and higher volume around the upper cuff and tongue. I couldn't make them work either. I would have suggested the Plug Race model for that boot. I guess the thinking is that you still need to fill up some volume, hence the selection of the Race FX, but you may find that it won't fit with the first bake. Note that Intuition liners will reduce in volume with subsequent bakes. The foam becomes more dense (less warm), but a liner that has a difficult time getting into a shell will work with another bake (or two). The other option of course is to punt and tell them to get you the Plug Race. I'm assuming it was their suggestion to go with the Race FX, so if it doesn't work you shouldn't have to pay the penalty. Of course this is all speculation, but at least you'll have the info depending on the outcome.
 

Noodler

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I just went to the Intuition site to refresh my memory on the Race FX, Race HD, and the Plug Race. Based on everything you've said about your feet and the boot fitting issues, I'm really wondering why the Race FX was chosen. The description of that liner states that it's for "filling out the upper cuff for skiers with thinner calves". They also state that it leaves "more room in the forefoot". Isn't this like exactly opposite of what you need?
 
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AmyPJ

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I just went to the Intuition site to refresh my memory on the Race FX, Race HD, and the Plug Race. Based on everything you've said about your feet and the boot fitting issues, I'm really wondering why the Race FX was chosen. The description of that liner states that it's for "filling out the upper cuff for skiers with thinner calves". They also state that it leaves "more room in the forefoot". Isn't this like exactly opposite of what you need?
Your feedback is so appreciated. Yes, that is the opposite of what I need, although I would hope that the liner will still take up more volume than the stock liner so it might be OK? (It's one of two he recommended, along with the HD.) The guy we ordered from at SVST said based on the description of what I need, the FX would work. We can trade it out for a different one if necessary.

How does it compare to the Plug Race? Or, how does the Plug Race compare to the Pro Tongue to the FX? I want comfy, although I think a boot that is snug and has a liner that follows the contours of my feet will be comfy (except for with the Pro Tongue--that thing is like a brick.)

In the event that the foot works, but the cuff is still too thick, can I heat the upper cuff with a blowdryer or hot bag of rice a few times to get it to decrease in volume? Any other ideas how to compress some volume out of the back of the cuff if necessary? If it weren't for that, I would have taken the Pro Tongues out for a spin just to feel the performance of the boot. They molded to my feet really well.
 

markojp

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Head has the B5 in a 22 shell. Also, the Raptor 90 RS W and Raptor 90S RS. Based on your foot measurements (especially the lower than average instep) I wouldn't shy away from the Raptor just because of your experience with the B5 that was too large.
For some, depending on lower leg anatomy and mass, the small Raptors will put a skier too far forward. A 22.5 in A Tecnica Pro LV may be too stiff, but may have a better stance in the smaller sizes... impossible to tell without eyes on, but....
 

Noodler

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Your feedback is so appreciated. Yes, that is the opposite of what I need, although I would hope that the liner will still take up more volume than the stock liner so it might be OK? (It's one of two he recommended, along with the HD.) The guy we ordered from at SVST said based on the description of what I need, the FX would work. We can trade it out for a different one if necessary.

How does it compare to the Plug Race? Or, how does the Plug Race compare to the Pro Tongue to the FX? I want comfy, although I think a boot that is snug and has a liner that follows the contours of my feet will be comfy (except for with the Pro Tongue--that thing is like a brick.)

In the event that the foot works, but the cuff is still too thick, can I heat the upper cuff with a blowdryer or hot bag of rice a few times to get it to decrease in volume? Any other ideas how to compress some volume out of the back of the cuff if necessary? If it weren't for that, I would have taken the Pro Tongues out for a spin just to feel the performance of the boot. They molded to my feet really well.

The hair dryer or heat gun idea is a strong "no go" with Intuition liners (in my experience). Lots of war stories about guys trying that on TGR and failing (from back in the day). I don't believe Intuition recommends that either.

I would examine the liner closely and assess the volume of the cuff versus the forefoot before molding. If you anticipate a possible issue with the cuff volume after that inspection then the best approach is to buckle the top buckle and powerstrap as tightly as possible during the initial molding process. This is the basic best practice for Intuition liners when you know where you will need more room versus less room in the shell. If you already know you want to take up volume in the forefoot and over the instep, then do NOT buckle tightly over those areas during the molding. Allow the liner to fill out the shell as much as possible without much/any compression in those areas.
 
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AmyPJ

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The hair dryer or heat gun idea is a strong "no go" with Intuition liners (in my experience). Lots of war stories about guys trying that on TGR and failing (from back in the day). I don't believe Intuition recommends that either.

I would examine the liner closely and assess the volume of the cuff versus the forefoot before molding. If you anticipate a possible issue with the cuff volume after that inspection then the best approach is to buckle the top buckle and powerstrap as tightly as possible during the initial molding process. This is the basic best practice for Intuition liners when you know where you will need more room versus less room in the shell. If you already know you want to take up volume in the forefoot and over the instep, then do NOT buckle tightly over those areas during the molding. Allow the liner to fill out the shell as much as possible without much/any compression in those areas.
I'll definitely look at it closely and put it in the shell, then put my foot in to see how it feels before molding it.
Thanks for the advice!!
 
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AmyPJ

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Making progress. The Race FX liner seems to be perfect. I’m actually going to need to make space around the talus or cuneiform on both feet, Possibly the 5th met on the left foot, and a hair more room for all toes except my pinky toe. I’ve never in my life had to make room in a boot.
In the meantime, I’ve been working on separation drills to help with some of my body alignment and it’s helping a lot.


D20AD61C-CF07-4A79-B39E-A2AD58B1275F.jpeg
F43D1E8D-1C45-4C63-899D-B6D23F15C481.jpeg

A2092308-A935-4C4B-A8BE-FECB1F404335.jpeg
 

Noodler

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To complete the conversation about the Intuition liners discussed in this thread...

I was able to physically inspect these liners and here are my observations of the unmolded liners:

1580485821859.png
 
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AmyPJ

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To complete the conversation about the Intuition liners discussed in this thread...

I was able to physically inspect these liners and here are my observations of the unmolded liners:

View attachment 92069
Awesome. Thank you! Are the mold zones on the HD and FX the same? Meaning, the shape of the "active" foam vs. the foam around the foot that doesn't mold, are they the same shape or does the active foam go further forward on the HD?

On a side note (kind of), I played around with essentially zeroing out the canting on my right side, which was canted .5 degrees laterally. I used a cut up credit card on the lateral side and it made a huge difference. I have had quad burn in that thigh for several years now that comes and goes and I had zero today. Turn initiation was much cleaner, and my right ski didn't shoot across the hill on steeper stuff. I still think I am over-canted medial on my left side and plan to tinker with that tomorrow. Then, with any luck, I'll get into the new boots on Sunday at least for a minute after we do some prep on them tomorrow night.
 

Noodler

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Awesome. Thank you! Are the mold zones on the HD and FX the same? Meaning, the shape of the "active" foam vs. the foam around the foot that doesn't mold, are they the same shape or does the active foam go further forward on the HD?

Yes, I believe so.
 
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AmyPJ

AmyPJ

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22578EDC-806F-45F9-AB8B-51FE6763D099.png
22578EDC-806F-45F9-AB8B-51FE6763D099.png
Update: :yahoo:
I've been out in the boots for three days now. Day 1: too much forward lean. But the front of my skis were THERE, and the boots are nice. My knees, however, were killing me. Phil and @utskier to the rescue. 3mm?? toe lift and it stood me up enough to take the knee pain away. My quads, however, are singing which is a good indicator to STAND UP.
Day 2: Ski testing. I took the first run on a ski I knew wouldn't kill me (Black Pearl 88) and was grinning the whole way.
Day 3: Ski testing. I have made great friends with these boots. They put me in a much better stance, they aren't too stiff at all, and they fit like nothing I've ever had on my feet before. I am really shocked they aren't too stiff. I haven't even removed one of the bolts in the back. They are a nice, progressive flex. It's been chilly, too, with temps in the teens in the mornings, and the mid-twenties throughout the day. They are not easy to get off, though!

Zipping down this morning on the Augment 77 in a 159 (what a ski!)
 

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