Aft on a 2019 Brahma

[karlo]

I had an unexpected experience last April with rental skis and wonder why. I rented 2019 Brahmas and felt aft. I clicked into I think 173's and felt so much on its tails that I went in to exchange them, for 180's, before even taking the first ride up. It was better, but throughout the day, I had trouble staying centered. Interestingly, I own the 2017 Brahma's, 180, and feel very centered. The second and last day, I took out 173, I think, Quattro 8.4 Ti's and immediately felt centered. Why might I have had that experience with the rental Brahmas? They had demo bindings whose toe and heel pieces adjust to keep any boot centered

 

[Tricia]

I had an unexpected experience last April with rental skis and wonder why. I rented 2019 Brahmas and felt aft. I clicked into I think 173's and felt so much on its tails that I went in to exchange them, for 180's, before even taking the first ride up. It was better, but throughout the day, I had trouble staying centered. Interestingly, I own the 2017 Brahma's, 180, and feel very centered. The second and last day, I took out 173, I think, Quattro 8.4 Ti's and immediately felt centered. Why might I have had that experience with the rental Brahmas? They had demo bindings whose toe and heel pieces adjust to keep any boot centered

If they had Marker Griffon demo bindings on them, you were probably feeling the ramp, or lack thereof on that particular binding.

 

[Josh Matta]

most likely feeling the ramp angle of the binding. What binding on your own brahmas and what binding on the demos?

 

[karlo]

you were probably feeling the ramp

What binding on your own brahmas and what binding on the demos?

What is ramp, and how does one adjust ramp? (Edit. I looked it up. So, a boot can also affect ramp angle? Plates? Heel lifts?)

I have Marker Griffons on mine. I don’t know what were on the demo Brahma’s. The Quattro’s has a system binding.

 

[Josh Matta]

Ramp is the level of incline between the rear and front binding. You can only adjust by either adjusting the sole thickness of the boot or putting shims under the binding.

With out knowing what the bindings are the demos though its basically impossible to know this answer. If you have griffons on yours and the quattros with system binding i would venture a guess that the demo was something like a NX that has a much higher heel. The higher heels put your to far forward and you move back to compensate.

 

[karlo]

NX

I searched it. That’s a Look binding?

Why would a shop give customers a higher ramp angle on their demo skis, rather than something more “conservative”? I would have thought that they would want to minimize the chances that their customer feel aft.

 

[Tricia]

What is ramp, and how does one adjust ramp? (Edit. I looked it up. So, a boot can also affect ramp angle? Plates? Heel lifts?)

I have Marker Griffons on mine. I don’t know what were on the demo Brahma’s. The Quattro’s has a system binding.

Most( not all) Blizzard demos that are flat mount skis, have Marker Griffon demo bindings. The Griffon from a few years ago(both consumer and demo) has different ramp than the 2019 version, which has a negative ramp. Same name on the binding but different ramp.

 

[mdf]

Most( not all) Blizzard demos that are flat mount skis, have Marker Griffon demo bindings. The Griffon from a few years ago(both consumer and demo) has different ramp than the 2019 version, which has a negative ramp. Same name on the binding but different ramp.

It is frustrating how much ramp varies and how little publicized it is. Changing the ramp on the "same" bindings is pretty outrageous.

We tend to say around here that when you demo skis you are also (mostly?) demoing the tune. Looks like you are also demoing the ramp angle....

 

[Tricia]

It is frustrating how much ramp varies and how little publicized it is. Changing the ramp on the "same" bindings is pretty outrageous.

We tend to say around here that when you demo skis you are also (mostly?) demoing the tune. Looks like you are also demoing the ramp angle....

This is true.
@Philpug and I have had quite the extensive conversation about such things.

 

[Philpug]

It is frustrating how much ramp varies and how little publicized it is. Changing the ramp on the "same" bindings is pretty outrageous.

We tend to say around here that when you demo skis you are also (mostly?) demoing the tune. Looks like you are also demoing the ramp angle....

Actually delta, not ramp but yes. Lets not also forget height.

 

[Tricia]

Actually delta, not ramp but yes. Lets not also forget height.

Doh!
Sorry, I should have said delta.

 

[James]

With the same binding, different size boots.
Delta remains the same. Ramp angle changes.
Or does the ski industry maintain something else?

 

[karlo]

should have said delta

Now I’m thoroughly confused. But, no matter. This is the first time I’ve experienced this in my life. So, I guess having a problem is very rare

 

[mdf]

With the same binding, different size boots.
Delta remains the same. Ramp angle changes.
Or does the ski industry maintain something else?

If I understand it, the delta is inherent in the construction of the binding. The resulting ramp depends on how far apart the heel and toe pieces are, in other words the boot size. But for the same skier in the same boots, ramp and delta amount to the same thing. And ramp is what you feel; delta is what causes it.

 

[EricG]

I think I am understanding it similar to @mdf and @James

Delta is fixed based on the specific binding. The Delta is simply the difference (if any) between the height of the toe and heel piece contact point for the sole. The ramp is the angle created between the toe and heel piece depending on the distance between the 2 parts. A longer BSL theoretically will have less ramp angle than a shorter BSL given the same delta.

 

[Tricia]

Now I’m thoroughly confused. But, no matter. This is the first time I’ve experienced this in my life. So, I guess having a problem is very rare

Ramp is the angle from your heel to your toe in a boot.
Delta is the angle from your heel to your toe in a binding.

IMHO we've grown accustomed to having a little delta in a binding, meaning that your heel is slightly higher than your toe.
The new Griffon has a negative delta, which means that the heel is slightly lower than the toe.
There is more information here.
Ramp, Delta, and Ski Boot / Ski Binding Setup | Pugski - Ski talk ...https://www.pugski.com › threads › ramp-delta-and-boot-binding-setup

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Either way it's annoying. For someone like me, who has to use heel lifts in my boots due to bone restricted ankles, binding delta can be a huge pita. I wish binding companies would state the delta angle in their specs. I have researched and researched and not been able to find the info anywhere.

 

[Tricia]

Either way it's annoying. For someone like me, who has to use heel lifts in my boots due to bone restricted ankles, binding delta can be a huge pita. I wish binding companies would state the delta angle in their specs. I have researched and researched and not been able to find the info anywhere.

That's why you're here

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

That's why you're here

True nuff!

 

[EricG]

Either way it's annoying. For someone like me, who has to use heel lifts in my boots due to bone restricted ankles, binding delta can be a huge pita. I wish binding companies would state the delta angle in their specs. I have researched and researched and not been able to find the info anywhere.

The manufacturer can provide stack height as that is fixed. Delta as defined is the incremental difference between x & y. So it we subtract the stack height of the toe and stack height of the heel (or vise versa) we can determine the delta. But they cannot tell you the angle as depending on the BSL the angle will change slightly.