Advice needed: Soft Snow ski for European Alps

[Justus]

Hello everyone,

looking for a soft snow ski in a 2 ski quiver (Navigator 85 is my carving ski). Hoping for a playful (great manoeuverability) dirctional ski (which is easy to turn at moderate speeds). Ski weight should be around/slightly under 2000 grams per ski.

I prefer skiing long lines on open faces as well as tree skiing. Not into hard charging (consider myself an advanced skier but rellatively new to soft snow skiing. 6 ft 180lbs)

I figured my ideal ski would be a 106 mm Navigator with a rockered and slightly tapered tail or an Enforcer 106 with the Navigator Hex Titanium bridge - none of which exist.

I narrowed it down to the Black Crows Atris, Armada Tracer 108 and the Atomic Backland FR 109. I would consider the Rustler 10 but I am not sure how much performance/float I would loose with the narrower waist.

My questions are basically these:

• How does a lower Tip splay affect float? (Tracer 108 has a lower Tip splay than the other ones)
• How does tail rocker affect soft snow perfomance, especially float? (Again the Tracer has a very moderate tail rocker and splay compared to the other ones)
  
• How would a stiffer tail affect soft snow performance?
• Lots of early taper vs. "freeride" inspired tip (Atomic Backland vs. the rest). Early taper seems to make a ski more manoeuverable but less taper means more surface area and thus more float?
• I read quite often that a ski likes to be skied driven from the center (Atris) vs. driving the shovel but I don't really understand what that means - what is the role of mount point here?

I am afraid the Atris would be too much for what I am looking for - even though it is advertised as playful I read quite often that it wants to be charged, needs speed and is not as nimble as people would like.

The Tracer 108 would be my first choice but I am not sure whether the lower tip and tail splay as well as the small tail rocker would limit its soft snow performance.

Atomic Backland FR 109 looks great on paper but is not available anymore and I am not sure how the very prominent early tapered tips and tails would work in deep snow.

The Rustler 10 is around 6mm smaller in the waist than the others - my guess is the others will do better in soft snow.


Skis I ruled out are:

• Qst 106 – charging focused, rather "flat" tail, I did not like the feel of the XDR (carbon/flax) when I rented them for a week
  
• Soul 7 HD – Tips to soft, bad edge hold
• Origin 106 – hard too find in Europe, too much rocker? (Powder ski shape but All-mountain width)
• Kore 105 - too stiff, I prefer the feel of wood in a ski

Any input appreciated, thanks!

 

[James]

Are you buying this in Europe?

 

[Sibhusky]

Are you buying this in Europe?

He shows Switzerland for his location, so I'm guessing yes.

 

[James]

I read quite often that a ski likes to be skied driven from the center (Atris) vs. driving the shovel but I don't really understand what that means - what is the role of mount point here?

Lots of people like to drive the tails and smear them out. It can be a tecnique, a style, or, bad skiing. But those comments are for that. Traditional skis have more in front and skiers "drive the front". Even if you're just in the middle, that's how they talk about it. Suspect you're in that category. Sure, moving the binding makes a difference, but some skis are designed one way or the other.

 

[Justus]

Lots of people like to drive the tails and smear them out. It can be a tecnique, a style, or, bad skiing. But those comments are for that. Traditional skis have more in front and skiers "drive the front". Even if you're just in the middle, that's how they talk about it. Suspect you're in that category. Sure, moving the binding makes a difference, but some skis are designed one way or the other.

thanks for the explanation, makes more sense now!

And yes I will be buying in Europe!

 

[Analisa]

All great skis. The Backland 109 was replaced by the 107 last year & is still in production.

I ski the Atrises, and I wouldn't be super worried about how demanding they are. They don't demand charge-y skiing, but they do demand good technique and a pretty forward stance, and in that sense, they're more traditional. Their turn radius is pretty long and they're moderately stiff, so they can be a little tricky in tight spots like moguls. But otherwise, they're super versatile - carve better than my 95 width skis, great float, handles chunder like stiffer, heavier skis in that class.

My boyfriend & a lot of gal pals ski Backlands. I wouldn't make too many inferences about float based on the rocker lines & tip shape alone. The Backlands are mounted a little further back and the tips are pretty soft. Friends who ski them inbounds like that they're forgiving & surfy (most of them moved from the Soul//Sky 7s and wanted something with a little more oomf). Friends who ski them backcountry are really impressed with the stability for the weight.

Stiffer tails helps a lot with stability when things get skied out & choppy. Some people like the traditional flex, but others feel like the tips and tails belong to different skis, and prefer something a little more symmetrical. Totally personal preference.

 

[Justus]

All great skis. The Backland 109 was replaced by the 107 last year & is still in production.

I ski the Atrises, and I wouldn't be super worried about how demanding they are. They don't demand charge-y skiing, but they do demand good technique and a pretty forward stance, and in that sense, they're more traditional. Their turn radius is pretty long and they're moderately stiff, so they can be a little tricky in tight spots like moguls. But otherwise, they're super versatile - carve better than my 95 width skis, great float, handles chunder like stiffer, heavier skis in that class.

My boyfriend & a lot of gal pals ski Backlands. I wouldn't make too many inferences about float based on the rocker lines & tip shape alone. The Backlands are mounted a little further back and the tips are pretty soft. Friends who ski them inbounds like that they're forgiving & surfy (most of them moved from the Soul//Sky 7s and wanted something with a little more oomf). Friends who ski them backcountry are really impressed with the stability for the weight.

Stiffer tails helps a lot with stability when things get skied out & choppy. Some people like the traditional flex, but others feel like the tips and tails belong to different skis, and prefer something a little more symmetrical. Totally personal preference.

thanks, great things to consider about the Atris and the Backland!

Unfortunately the "new" Backland 107 seems to be a different ski - quite a bit lighter (more deflection, less stability) and shallower rocker lines as well, more abrupt front rocker and a lot less splay in the tail (19mm vs. 45mm).

Thats why I posted here, I read the reviews and numbers but don't have the experience to tell how that difference in tail splay would translate on to the snow for example.

 

[fatbob]

If you're buying in Yurp the Whitedot Altum 104 ought to be on your demo list or the Ronde 109 if you want a more trad style but lighter carbon ski.

 

[James]

Elan Ripstick 106 Black Edition sounds like the ticket. Expensive.
1800 gms/181. Ski measures short at 178cm straight pull. (See Blister Reviews)
I don't recommend the regular ripsticks.
Volkl Mantra 102 - a bit heavy at like 2200 gms/184. But measures 183 cm straight pull. Pretty "traditional" style ski. Very versatile. Light skis will generally not be blasters.
See these reviews.
https://www.pugski.com/threads/a-laymans-look-at-2020-skis.15345/

Sounds like you don't really want a "powder" ski, but something you use in soft snow and cutup. A powder ski doesn't fit in a two ski quiver unless you live in powderville.

Skis are more than shape. Flex is huge. It's the combo of everything together. You can reduce the splay or rocker and make it a bit softer. Sometimes it's hard to tell. A lot is preference too.
The Backland 107 is super quick . It has lots of fans. Really comes down to preference with these things. Is it a blaster through crud? No, but it's good qualities might over ride that.

What do you weigh?

 

[Justus]

Elan Ripstick 106 Black Edition sounds like the ticket. Expensive.
1800 gms/181. Ski measures short at 178cm straight pull. (See Blister Reviews)
I don't recommend the regular ripsticks.
Volkl Mantra 102 - a bit heavy at like 2200 gms/184. But measures 183 cm straight pull. Pretty "traditional" style ski. Very versatile. Light skis will generally not be blasters.
See these reviews.
https://www.pugski.com/threads/a-laymans-look-at-2020-skis.15345/

Sounds like you don't really want a "powder" ski, but something you use in soft snow and cutup. A powder ski doesn't fit in a two ski quiver unless you live in powderville.

Skis are more than shape. Flex is huge. It's the combo of everything together. You can reduce the splay or rocker and make it a bit softer. Sometimes it's hard to tell. A lot is preference too.
The Backland 107 is super quick . It has lots of fans. Really comes down to preference with these things. Is it a blaster through crud? No, but it's good qualities might over ride that.

What do you weigh?

180lbs at 6 feet.

You are right about the powder ski. If I was heading to Japan or Alaska I would consider something different (wider and softer). If I was touring the backcountry I'd be getting the Anima Freebird with Kingpins for example.
I am looking for an off-piste ski that I'll take out after it has snowed and that should be fun.

Concerning the Ripstick, the tail is why I eliminated the QST 106 and why I am concerned about the Tracer 108. Harder to release the tail, less fun smeraing turns?

The Mantra is too heavy unfortunately like the Enforcer too heavy (more fatigue, more demanding?) Like FairToMiddlin wrote in his post "Skiers placing a premium on agility over power would be better served with Atomic's Backland 107" and I definitely am looking for agility over power. Also it is a really stiff ski (too demanding, not as fun in soft snow - like the Kore?)

 

[Justus]

Looking for an off-piste ski to take out after has snowed, with a focus on agility over power. Lightweight enough to reduce fatigue but not so light that it sacrifices stability and increases deflection a lot - thus in between 1800 and 2000g. A fun ski that is not considered to be among the worst when it needs to hold an egde.

Thus Atris vs. Tracer 108 vs. Backland 109 FR.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

You asked some questions about characteristics:
1. Generically tip splay and area does help with float
2. Tail splay, as James said, is mostly a style choice. If you like to “slash” or “slarve” turns in soft snow you usually ski with your weight more centered and skis with flatter tails make your turns harder. The more you pivot turn instead of making long arcs the less you tend to like super flat tails on wide skis.

 

[Justus]

You asked some questions about characteristics:
1. Generically tip splay and area does help with float
2. Tail splay, as James said, is mostly a style choice. If you like to “slash” or “slarve” turns in soft snow you usually ski with your weight more centered and skis with flatter tails make your turns harder. The more you pivot turn instead of making long arcs the less you tend to like super flat tails on wide skis.

Awesome, thanks, exactly the answers I was looking for. When I said "smearing" I meant slarving (sliding carve) / drifting!

 

[James]

Yeah "smearing" as opposed to carving, isn't what the big tail rocker/splay is for.

It's pivoting from the center in 3-d snow. Personally, I prefer arcs over going sideways. A flatter tail is fun in that you can give it some pressure at the end of the turn and pop out. So "fun" is relative too.

There's also overall taper.
The Elan has nearly 20 mm overall taper. Meaning the back is that much less than the front.
The Tracer 108 has less than 10mm. Thus, you'd need more rocker, which the Tracer has. Plus an appropriate flex pattern.

Slashing:

Slashing in powder. At 3:29, 4:22, plus other places, drift turn at 3:45. Basically when you throw them sideways. I'm sure there's better videos to just show slashing, but this segment is a beautiful piece of film.
JP Auclair was one of the founders of Armada. ( In red here) Great skier, racing, mogul comps, big mountain, one of the original Canadian Airforce members in the late 90's who were hugely influential. Killed in an avalanche in Patagonia in 2014.


Some discussion of Fischers Ranger and Ranger ti line by Mike Hattrup.
Starts at 3:20

 

[neonorchid]

Slashing:

Of course he slashes, the guy's a freak'ing human Dachshund. Check out the outfit he needs a tailor to slash length off those pants! Oversize shell ... Park rat Sorry, but I can't get past that to take his video serious

 

[James]

Of course he slashes, the guy's a freak'ing human Dachshund. Check out the outfit he needs a tailor to slash length off those pants! Oversize shell ... Park rat Sorry, but I can't get past that to take his video serious

Maybe go back to classic rock? The indy stuff isn't working.

 

[Sibhusky]

This is a thing? Why? I can't believe anyone devoted a video to it.

 

[Cheizz]

Two years ago, I had the same search going as you do now, @Justus, for and from Europe too. I ended up demoing most skis in that category you describe. Skis that I liked in the allround category (ie easy to ski in both open faces as well as in tight spots given their agility) are 2018 K2 Pinnacle 105 (which I got), Rossi Soul 7 HD (the grey ones), Black Corws Atris (a bit firmer, but by no means a handful). Some narrower modes such as Black Crows Navis and Blizzard Rustler 10 didn't make the cut for float. I have to say that I am a bit heavier than you are. I also have to say that I love the Rustler 10 for anything but bottomless powder. I am probably getting them, mounted with tech bindings.

All these skis are very reliable and easy to ski, and they will all work beutifully. The first three I mentioned are - I found - so similar, that I just bought the ones that I could find the best deal for. The Rustler is something I will come back for for the more technical stuff (it is lighter, and has a flatter tail) and for the stuff harder to get to.

 

[Justus]

found a good deal on the Atris and went with it. I deceided against the Tracer because the bevelled Top-Sheet would not acommodate the 82mm AFD pad of the Attack 13 GW Binding as well as the lower tip splay.