I didn't get the skating drill in that context - I think his idea was to look at how you move inside as you skate, but when skating, we tend to brace against a long new outside leg (the one we glide on), which is the opposite of the "gravity drop" idea of relaxation, so I didn't get that one either.
I've been coached on some cross-over from skating to skiing, so perhaps that might help. The idea in the coaching I received was that you have to establish a platform against which you can push to propel yourself skating (whether ski skating, ice skating, or inline skating). To establish the platform, you have to roll the knee inward and down -- that establishes an edged platform against which you can skate or, in skiing, is now ready to accept pressure. So, perhaps the gravity drop is just the process of establishing that platform and it starts with a roll of the ankle but the major move is the roll of the femur/inclination of the body to establish edge and angulation.
I'm watching Project Hintertux, again (again). Again. The technical talk is a bit above my head but I still like listening to these skiers' insights. However, I am unclear on the basis of the drills. I have not used ski drills as extensively as I would like to so I am not clear on the training goal of some of the drills. For example, in JFB's segment regarding gravity drops he uses a skating drill. Is this skating drill supposed to only draw attention to something I should do and thus increase my awareness of something I should do more of or is there some mechanical element inherent in that sequence that will directly tranfer to non-skating drill skiing?
My plan was to watch this video (and the How Tos) while working around the house, then to sit down with one segment of one video at a time and take notes on it, develop the idea and the drill in my head, then go to the mountain and try it out. I need some more clarity along my way though...
My interpretation of the gravity drop is related to my fourth point in my signature "Accelerate up or down, always."
In the context of skating you need to have a platform to push against, like @Mike King said, but it is not enough. I can establish a platform while statically standing in balance on one leg. If I push against this platform I will merely push myself up, not laterally which is required for skating.
You need to let the CoM drop down and to the inside. The more you allow this "gravity drop" the more you can push and the more you have allowed the CoM to the inside the more this push will accelerate you forward, not just up.
It is the same with skiing without skating, you need to let the CoM drop in and down before you establish the turn. Same kind of feeling, hence the drill.
My interpretation of the gravity drop is related to my fourth point in my signature "Accelerate up or down, always."
In the context of skating you need to have a platform to push against, like @Mike King said, but it is not enough. I can establish a platform while statically standing in balance on one leg. If I push against this platform I will merely push myself up, not laterally which is required for skating.
You need to let the CoM drop down and to the inside. The more you allow this "gravity drop" the more you can push and the more you have allowed the CoM to the inside the more this push will accelerate you forward, not just up.
It is the same with skiing without skating, you need to let the CoM drop in and down before you establish the turn. Same kind of feeling, hence the drill.
I think so -- you need to get the CoM inside and down, but you also need to not lose the platform that can accept the pressure in the shaping phase of the turn. A big theme in our training this year has been early edge, but I think it is more about early platform (the edge may be building, but it might not be interacting much with the snow -- think the float phase of short radius turns). Tipping the lower leg (driving the outside knee in and down) brings the CoM in and down as well.
JFB's segment regarding gravity drops he uses a skating drill. Is this skating drill supposed to only draw attention to something I should do and thus increase my awareness of something I should do more of or is there some mechanical element inherent in that sequence that will directly tranfer to non-skating drill skiing?
I think that the gravity drop is the most abstract of all the concepts. At first, I gave up on understanding it and focused on watching his skiing. There is a fluidity to it, IMO. For me, that was the hook. Then, I listened to his explanations many, many times. It made perfect sense, what he said, about folks just going straightaway to the new edge, about that being abrupt, not fluid. So, how does one achieve a de minimis pressure on the new edge, from which to gradually increase pressure. My interpretation is that one does not start the turn with the new edge. One starts it on the old edge, the little toe edge of the old inside ski, then roll through the flat of the ski to the big toe edge of that ski, which becomes the new outside ski. What that also means is that there is a transfer of pressure (weight) to the new outside ski, BEFORE it is off the little toe edge, BEFORE transition if transition is defined as skis being flat. I tried it and the turn initiation AND finish are so, so smooth. The gradual increase, then decrease of pressure in between initiation and finish feels like a satellite dropped towards a planetary body and slingshotted around it.
So, how is skating a progression. Watch speed skaters skate. For the skate that will power their next stroke, they project themselves onto its little toe edge and roll onto the big toe edge. That rolling imparts momentum and increases efficiency. Along a cat track, we can skate like that in skis. When skiing downhill, that same momentum can really bend a ski at the belly of the turn and make an incredible arc.
So, the skating drill gets one to develop getting onto the little toe edge of the will-be new outside ski, BEFORE transition, allowing a rolling to the big toe edge during transition. Or, one can skip the skating drill altogether, and just focus on the early weight shift to what will be the outside ski, and the rolling in transition.
My plan was to watch this video (and the How Tos) while working around the house, then to sit down with one segment of one video at a time and take notes on it, develop the idea and the drill in my head
Watching the video without undivided attention would not have worked for me. I took notes while watching the first time. That gave me a structure from which to build understanding when watching it again, and again.
If you want to understand more about gravity drop, maybe purchase JF's video on... "gravity drop". That's part 3 here: http://www.skiwithjf.com/buy-videos (part 2 is also good). You'll see he talks a lot about it and "inside ski being the decider and the outside ski the rider".
It's referred to, in other places, as simply "tipping", but there are a few useful mental models around it, JF's being some of them.
Beaulieu is a beautiful skier. English isn't his first language...and what he says is just word salad. (bash deleted)
The good racers use the fundamentals of how the skis are made to function and how the body functions. This has been written about and taught at all levels from 1st day to expert by Harald Harb.
Edit: remove commercial link
I don't think that JF's videos are 'word salad' at all. English may not be his first language, but I find the second video , especially the part where he talks about climbing the wall, to be a really effective description of what it feels like to make a really good transition to, and beginning of, a new turn; and I like the bowl metaphor. Works for me.
I think the point of teaching is that what works for some doesn't work for all. The master teacher is one that finds what works for a particular student. Lacking any evidence to suggest otherwise, I assume that what JF is saying is working for the student in the video. I assume that JF is a master teacher.
The Zillertal Project is an incredible ski instruction video. As with the earlier installments, the viewer had better be prepared to study and learn. Follow what Jon Ahlsén, Jonathan Ballou, Alex Taugwalder have to say, do the drills that they describe and demonstrate, feel what they wish for you to feel, and you will be on a path of learning and self-discovery, regardless of what level of skier you are.
My first reaction to The Zillertal Project, watched before my ski season started, was that it was boring after having watched the first two installments. And, what I now consider to be the pièce de résistance, I thought the Jonathan Ballou segment was exceedingly verbose and excruciatingly detailed. So, what changed? I completed a second season of ski instructing, and I took the Level 2 Teaching Exam, along with the associated reading and preparations. What I learned was how different folks learn differently; I learned what VAK, Visual, Auditory, and Kinesthetic learning are. I also began to apply that to my instruction method in group lessons, to make sure everyone had the opportunity to learn in the manner best suited, but also to offer the opportunity for each student to make use of every path for learning; I think I became a better instructor. With these experiences, I came to appreciate Zillertal. As a student seeking to improve one’s skiing, one will receive clear statements of goals, detailed instructions on how to perform a drill, description of what feelings to seek, visual cues for performance, and HD video demonstrations, from three instructors at the top of the profession. No five minute YouTube video will come close. As an instructor seeking to learn how to instruct, I have witnessed three exemplary models performing their art.
The video is divided into three parts, one of each instructor. All three discuss short turns and long turns. Not exclusively, but generally Ahlsén focuses on fine movement patterns. Having mastered that, Ballou takes the viewer to the development of smooth, round turns, turns that start high and early. Taugwalder sets one up to go out and do it.
Fine movements: Ahlsén explores the use of ankles to roll the skis from edge to edge, the use of leg extension to get on the outside ski, the use of one's core to attain balance. Drills include single ski edge-to-edge rolls, stemming, and an “anti-starfish” challenge. In the latter, one dumps the poles and keeps one's hands close to the body, relying on the core to maintain balance.
Smooth, round turns: Ballou utilizes javelin turns, one-ski garlands, and outside-ski to outside-ski drills to develop early shift to the old inside ski, to then roll onto it as the new outside ski, for the purpose of utilizing the power of the old turn, and develop round turns that start high. In this segment, Ballou gives perhaps the highest level performance in the art of ski instruction ever recorded. On short turns, he explains, in detail, the challenges that causes rotational effects on one’s body that results in the loss of a round turn. Then he presents three drills in detail. For example, what he calls an inside-out javelin turn,
“ the beginning is the same as a javelin turn. You come in with the outside ski turning in under the inside ski, right? And that inside ski is just sort of pointed in the same direction as the pelvis because it’s not on the snow. What I'll do then is put that ski back on the snow without changing any rotational alignment in my body and I’ll pick up the new inside ski, so I’ve shifted weight. Now, with that leg (that inside leg; all this is explained as he uses his hands to and arms to demonstrate) relaxed, it just realigns underneath the pelvis; it’s now pointed to the apex of the new turn. From there, I’m now oh my new outside ski, I change edge, and I make a round skidded turn, skiing into another javelin in the other direction. When I practice this inside-out javelin turn, I usually do it in a little longer transition; I lengthen the transition so I have time to check my body and alignment, and get really turned into what I'm feeling. As I turn my outside ski underneath my inside ski from the javelin at the end of the turn, this inside ski is pointed down the hill because it is lined up with the body. And, I can feel that because the leg is turned under the body. I can feel it in the hip joint, in the pelvis, in the core, in the glutes. What I’m trying to do is hold that bit of separation, it's not a ton, but that little bit of separation as I take my foot and put it back down. Now, if I’ve held that separation, there’s going to be a little lead change, the hips are going to be in line with the lead of the skis, and if I pick up the other ski, it should flop open a bit to line up with the body. If it doesn’t flop open, then my body has often rotated and I’ve lost the separation that I was trying to get. So my cue here is that, when I switch from foot to foot, my leg wants to open up. It feels like it just wants to line up to the inside because that’s where my body is pointed."
All this detail is accompanied, not just by his hands, by video demonstration.
Go out and do it, short turns and long turns: Taugwalder speaks to the student that learns by doing. Want to do high performance short turns? Start upright. After a few meters, lower the stance to be ready for the first turns. Don’t start turns at 100%. Dial back and feel the snow, feel how one is feeling before ramping it up. After that, focus on pedaling, the outside ski… you get the idea. Taugwalder also serves up some of the most exhilarating skiing in this video.
==============
The Zillertal Project is produced by Projected Productions. Duration: 1 hr 27 min. Cost: $25 at Vimeo on Demand.
Jon Ahlsén: BASI Examiner, NZSIA L3, NZSIA Demo Team, Swiss Patente. Currently works as a coach for New Generation Ski School’s level 4 training program in Verbier, Switzerland. Also worked several seasons at Treble Cone, NZ.
Jonathan Ballou: PSIA Alpine Demo Team, PSIA L3 Examiner, PSIA Alpine Committee Chair, PSIA Children’s, Examiner, NZSIA L3 Examiner, NZSIA Ski Division Committee (Education Coordinator). Current Director of Operations for the Aspen Mountains Ski and Snowboard School. Trainer at the Rookie Academy in Treblecone, NZ.
Alex Taugwalder: Member of Swiss Snow Demo Team, Member of Swiss Snow Education Pool, Swiss Fulll cert examiner, former FIS Racer with Europa Cup starts, ISIA GS World Champion Pamporovo 2013, 3x Swiss Ski Instructor Champion GS, 2x Swiss Ski Instructor Champion Ski Cross, Vice Champion GS at Interski 2015. Coach and founder of Race Academy Ybrig.
So you judge PhDs to be higher level... I agree with that, in this case, as in higher level of COM, due to lower angles and less flexing, likely a result of thinking through it too much !!
Having said that, great skiing from all of them, I especially like Ahlsen and Nadine (outside of R&P), if we're to pick.
p.s. If you look at Jamt's avatar you may have a surprise along the line of "higher and Deeper" but with bigger angles and more performance...
Besides, I don't even think JB is in fact a real-life PhD, like you implied...?
oy vey! Somehow you don't have my edited post. PhD, Piled Higher and Deeper? As in making a 500 word essay into a dissertation, one that needs a Spoiler Alert?
Me too. I even tried their type of skiing, to the degree I am capable, and it's thrilling. But, me, what I enjoyed most was emulating JF's musicality. Spettel's segment in Hintertux also captivated me. Along those lines, I would love to see
a Projected Productions film casting the likes of Hjorleifson and Caston.
Watch speed skaters skate. For the skate that will power their next stroke, they project themselves onto its little toe edge and roll onto the big toe edge. That rolling imparts momentum and increases efficiency. Along a cat track, we can skate like that in skis.
Interesting. I didn't realize speed skaters did this. It is way more like skating on skis then I realized.- If on skis you tip the foot in the air to the little toe edge, land on that edge, then roll to big toe for the push off.
The way to learn it is to do large strokes and thus slow it down. You want the foot in the air to come quite close to the power stroke boot. It may even touch it up near the top cuff.
Skating likethis very much relates to turning. You can feel it. For one thing, doing it this way both feet are outside the com along the arc segment the ski is making on the power stroke. Not just the power stroke ski.
For speed skating starts I think they do a much more upright stance and probably don't land on the little toe side of the blade. Short track may have a much shorter atc to the power stroke. It's amazing how far they deviate from the body going in a straight line. The body follows the arc of the skate, that's where the power is I guess even though the path is longer.
Check out how far the deviation from a straightline is and the landing on the little toe side of the blade:
I got back on my inline skates for the first time since the end of ski season. After 100M of wobbling around trying to dial in my fore - aft balance I skated pretty well. So if you want to improve your skating, ski all winter!
Maybe by next fall I will have a credible double push which is what this little toe edge technique is called. http://www.nettracing.com/step1.htm (tutorial for those who want to give it a go)
Oh my goodness, that's a GREAT progression, described so clearly.
Yes, I expect if you work on this over the green season you will be skiing on one ski next season with ease.
I'm tempted to take up inline skating just to give this a try.
I might wear knee protectors though ....
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
