A "quiet upper body" is a fallacy.

[Steve]

The more I learn, the more I realize that the appearance of a quiet upper body is just that, an appearance.

The skier is controlling and yes, moving the upper body at all times, it looks quiet when these movements are in perfect sync with the lower body.

For example, stand up and rotate your legs to the left. If the upper body doesn't rotate with them, it's because you are actively keeping it from doing so. It's not anchored to anything.

When your arms move with your legs, they're moving, you're controlling them.

The fallacy of a quiet upper body in ski instruction creates the robotic ski-instructor look. Skiing golf carts. Armed held in one place statically.

Much of this is coming from Tom Gellie's amazing "what to do with your arms" webinar, which is part of his paid service. Much is also from the teachings of a USSA race coach I know involving pole plants.

The arms are not held static in one place and the only thing moving is the flick of the wrist. BS!

Our arms and upper body are part of the system. All athletes in all sports use them. We use them when we walk or run. Being taught to not move them is a huge disservice to the trainees and students who've been held back in their skiing advancement by this fallacious approach.

I can't wait to get back on snow and start using my entire body to ski, not just my legs and feet!

Now, let the arguing discussion begin!

 

[4ster]

Quiet, calm, disciplined & 'STATIC' can all produce different results. Sometimes we need to pass through a robotic stage to reach a state of dynamism.

 

[Bad Bob]

Nothing in our sport is an absolute. There is no "always", there is no "never".
Your arms are counterweights to help adjust your balance. If you move counterweights in an extreme fashion, you must radically adjust mass. A 10 pound weight moving on the end of a 3 foot lever in motion creates a lot of force.
Personally a big fan of the old concept of "Total Motion", but the motions don't have to be large. Watch a figure skater.

 

[KingGrump]

start using my entire body to ski, not just my legs and feet!

Been there, done that. Body surfed on my back head first down R&R at Taos. A rather memorable experience. Not sure I would like to experience that one again anytime soon.

 

[Steve]

Regarding figure skaters; when they're spinning they bring their arms in close to spin faster, to slow down they extend the arms. Managing the mass.

And yes, I agree. Small movements. Disciplined arms, not quiet arms. Just holding them out there like useless appendixes makes for static skiers.

Gellie shows many examples of World Cup skiers using their arms. Some in different ways. Some bring the inside arm up to start the move to change edges, some don't.

My point is that they are in use, their muscles are activated and utilized. In order to not drop your inside arm back, you can either a: hold both arms in front of you like a statue and not let either move or b: actively manage that arm, feel what forces are doing to it and use intent. "Quiet" or even "Stable" don't do that. Both are static words. Skiing is dynamic.

And this isn't just a matter of wording, it creates a culture of skiers who are afraid to use anything other than their legs and feet to ski.

 

[David Chaus]

So does it help to instead to aspire to “a quiet-ish upper body?” Stable-ish?

Is there a better way to describe minimizing extraneous movements, whether upper body, arms, lower body?

A dynamic and yet stable-ish whole body system?

 

[Bad Bob]

Would question if it is possible to ski dynamically without involving the upper body. Your abs and lats are often involved creating internal forces reacting to your leg spine and hip motions.
And you couldn't effectively drink a beer without upper body motion.

 

[Steve]

So does it help to instead to aspire to “a quiet-ish upper body?” Stable-ish?

Is there a better way to describe minimizing extraneous movements, whether upper body, arms, lower body?

A dynamic and yet stable-ish whole body system?

Stable doesn't bother me, but quiet does. The arms need to move in synch with the rest of the body. Disciplined is the best word I've come up with so far.

 

[François Pugh]

I guess it all depends on how you interpret "quiet". IMHO, there is a happy medium between spastic and robot-still golf cart.

 

[Steve]

Yeah, it is symantics, I should stop objecting to "quiet" "silent" is maybe the way I'm interpreting it.

I do think that ski instruction and PSIA training do not teach you to use your arms or upper body. Saying "quiet" without explaining what the Upper Body is doing in it's quietude is what I really have an issue with.

 

[mister moose]

Nothing in our sport is an absolute. There is no "always", there is no "never".

I dunno. I think I could come up with a list...

Always remember where you parked the car.
Always clear the table of your trash when you're done.
Always be optimistic on the storm.
Always be able to avoid colliding with the other guy.
Always dress warm enough for the chair ride and cool enough so you don't sweat.
Always look at the spaces.
Always know where the water bars are early season.
Always be ready to change your plan.
Always ski like a slinky and not a board. Or a golf cart.


Never think those new skis will make you a better skier. (Although they might allow you to be the skier you already are)
Never pass a skier in distress.
Never litter.
Never stand on my skis in the liftline.
Never think all seasons are good enough for the mountains.
Never sideslip or heel slide on a powder day.
Never take my line.
Never run over your ski pole.
Never stay fixated on any one thing for too long.
Never leave chocolate in your pocket past March.

 

[pchewn]

I dunno. I think I could come up with a list...

Always remember where you parked the car.
Always clear the table of your trash when you're done.
Always be optimistic on the storm.
Always be able to avoid colliding with the other guy.
Always dress warm enough for the chair ride and cool enough so you don't sweat.
Always look at the spaces.
Always know where the water bars are early season.
Always be ready to change your plan.
Always ski like a slinky and not a board. Or a golf cart.


Never think those new skis will make you a better skier. (Although they might allow you to be the skier you already are)
Never pass a skier in distress.
Never litter.
Never stand on my skis in the liftline.
Never think all seasons are good enough for the mountains.
Never sideslip or heel slide on a powder day.
Never take my line.
Never run over your ski pole.
Never stay fixated on any one thing for too long.
Never leave chocolate in your pocket past March.

Never take a different vehicle than your gear.

 

[Fuller]

Considering that a majority of the people you see on the mountain are using their upper body to initiate their turns whatever words you want to use to make them stop is OK with me.

I think a lot of issues come with not understanding how your core and pelvic orientation is affecting your turns. Your core is... core! If your core is not engaged then things kind of move around haphazardly. Swimming is a good analog to look at. Many people swim very energetically but don't go very fast because their squishy middle has not connected the feet with the arms.

Good advice for swimmers and skiers (me): squeeze your butt cheeks a bit, bring your navel towards your spine and orient your pelvis as if you were about to zip up your jeans. That works amazingly well in the water when you learn to just hold the tension over the long haul. In skiing it's more of a default position to return to but equally important.

 

[mdf]

Considering that a majority of the people you see on the mountain are using their upper body to initiate their turns whatever words you want to use to make them stop is OK with me.

I think it comes down to the "don't teach something that has to be unlearned later" dogma. It sounds good, but I think the upper body is a counterexample. The quickest way to stop initiating by throwing your shoulders is to try to keep your upper body completely quiet. Even if you have to slightly unlearn that much later in your journey.

 

[cantunamunch]

Nothing in our sport is an absolute. There is no "always", there is no "never".
Your arms are counterweights to help adjust your balance. If you move counterweights in an extreme fashion, you must radically adjust mass. A 10 pound weight moving on the end of a 3 foot lever in motion creates a lot of force.

So - anyone else doing mace swinging during lockdown? (4'6" fwiw)

 

[crgildart]

Back in the day, this was considered smooth and low upper body motion

 

[4ster]

So - anyone else doing mace swinging during lockdown? (4'6" fwiw)

Oh, I’m sure I would break something or someone if I tried that

I do think that ski instruction and PSIA training do not teach you to use your arms or upper body.

Not in my experience. I learned & taught upper body movements my whole ski life (Countering, angulation, projecting the center of mass, pole swing etc.). I do think that modern ski instruction has placed so much emphasis on lower body movements & skiing from the feet up that the upper body has become an afterthought in the kinetic chain.
Up until about 2005 I always thought of tipping as a negative that skiers did with their shoulders or as a positive in that gratuity I receive at the end of an effective lesson. Never heard of “tipping the feet“ till HH, not to say that it wasn’t being done we just called it edging Or edging movements.
You say Tom Gellie promotes teaching it, so there is hope .

Watch Ligety as an example of using arms. Different in GS than SL but damned if he doesn’t use them effectively in both...

BTW, he often “tips” (not rotates) his upper body at the top of the turn in GS, rarely in SL.

 

[markojp]

So does it help to instead to aspire to “a quiet-ish upper body?” Stable-ish?

Is there a better way to describe minimizing extraneous movements, whether upper body, arms, lower body?

A dynamic and yet stable-ish whole body system?

Disciplined.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

Had a super frustrating situation with a coach in another sport around this a couple years ago, that definitely made me feel like "quiet" is one of those sort of nonsense coaching words that doesn't communicate what's actually happening.

We went in circles for months because she would tell me to be quieter with my upper body, and somehow the quieter I thought I was being, the more she'd tell me that I was being loud. I think she thought I was a total numbskull, honestly, because she'd tell me this about 10 times every time I worked with her, and I would somehow get worse instead of better.

Months in she finally told me that my hip angle was opening and closing too much – and that, for the millionth time, my upper body needed to be quieter. I thought that was the craziest sh*t I'd ever heard, so I went home and watched a million tapes from her style vs. the one my old coaches back home had taught. Sure enough - all of the top kids in her style are "quiet" in relationship to their feet, so the whole body moves as one unit, and the knee/hip barely changes. Everyone in my old style is "quiet" in the sense that the lower body moves like crazy to absorb shock, but the head + shoulders move along an imaginary track, like a stabilizing camera. Went back a week later, locked my angles, and it was like the curse was miraculously lifted.

I think skiing tends to have similar issues, where you can say "quiet" to five people and they'll come up with five completely different interpretations. Really a coach might mean that they need to absorb shock more somewhere else, or resist some force, or use the core muscles more, or use a different reference point – but not everyone spells that out.

 

[Disinterested]

Another thing I have seen happen first hand when someone is told to focus on leg turning instead of upper body rotation is that the skier keeps adding a stronger and stronger rotational input with increasing effort and it actually keeps throwing the hip in to the movement more and more through finish.

Pretty much everyone who doesn't start the turn with their torso will develop some kind of functional seperation through the middle of the turn just because the outside ski has to take a longer line. Skiers like this are adding so much power to their steering they can't maintain their old counter through finish and transition, because their outside leg and then hip accelerate through. So their coach tells them, no, you need to work on your leg turning, and they just make the effort even more vigorous.

It's not like rotating the leg in the hip socket is all that hard in itself, albeit that decoupling your torso from the direction of travel isn't all that much a part of everyday motion.