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A little disappointed with my first "premium" ski jacket.

Ken_R

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Tha is not correct. It is entirely possible to have a super warm synthetic parka (in fact I have one, Patagonia DAS parka, and before that, even warmer, Golite SixMonthNight parka) that far exceeds many down jackets in warmth (I have one of those too, a 6 oz down filled pullover).

Achieving high insulation value is solely a question of using enough fill.

Down (especially high fill power down) does have some significant benefits over synthetics:
  • It lasts much longer
  • It is MUCH lighter for the same amount of insulation
  • It is more supple and compressible for the same amount of insulation
Because of the last two, most brands choose to make their super warm parka’s with down, in order to keep weight lower and make them more comfortable and supple to wear.

I suspect this is what leads people to say “if you want really warm, you need down”. All the really warm parkas they have seen are down, all the synthetic parkas they have seen (especially if they are used, so lost loft) are less warm, so they believe it’s the fill material making the difference.

I guess I can make a Parka as warm as my down OR parka using synth. insulation but it would weight twice as much at least... Combining wool and synth insulation might make it warm without much bulk but it will still be quite heavy compared to the down parka and basically unpackable.

Low Activity and Cold weather (0ºF) requires really thick insulation. I had the DAS parka. Awesome piece but not as warm as my OR Parka. Or as packable.
 

Monique

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I guess I can make a Parka as warm as my down OR parka using synth. insulation but it would weight twice as much at least... Combining wool and synth insulation might make it warm without much bulk but it will still be quite heavy compared to the down parka and basically unpackable.

Low Activity and Cold weather (0ºF) requires really thick insulation. I had the DAS parka. Awesome piece but not as warm as my OR Parka. Or as packable.

On the plus side, synthetics don't mind being stuffed in a small space for long periods of time, and they dry quickly.
 

Ken_R

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On the plus side, synthetics don't mind being stuffed in a small space for long periods of time, and they dry quickly.

Synthetics are perfect as a mid layer for skiing. I have been using my dead bird Atom LT hoody for years under my shell. Works great. Use the Atom SV as outer layer for walking around down to about 30-35º. I break out the thick down at 15ºF or below. I guess one could also layer using synthetics. The DAS and now the Hyper Puff are super war when combined with a synth. insulated mid layer like an Atom LT.

With sleeping bags its a different deal since synth. insulated designs get really heavy and bulky. Dont think there is a synth. insulated bag rated lower than 15º-20ºF.
 

Monique

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Dont think there is a synth. insulated bag rated lower than 15º-20ºF.

I own one. TNF Snowshoe. There's one rated even lower.

You're right that they're huge. But my husband is allergic to down, so I make sacrifices.
 

Slim

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I guess I can make a Parka as warm as my down OR parka using synth. insulation but it would weight twice as much at least... still be quite heavy compared to the down parka and basically unpackable.
Low Activity and Cold weather (0ºF) requires really thick insulation. I had the DAS parka. Awesome piece but not as warm as my OR Parka. Or as packable.

Yes, and I mentioned those drawbacks, I was only disagreeing with the statement that synthetics don’t work in the cold.


I think your math,”it would weigh twice as much” is probably not correct.


I am not sure what the specs on your parka are, but let’s take the MB Permafrost Parka. A fairly lightweight (lighter than you’d usually want to ski in) super warm down parka with baffled construction.

It is 24`oz total, with 9 oz of 800fp down., That means 15oz is fabric and notions. If you filled it with synthetic insulation, the best of wich are equal to about 600fp down, you would need 33% more fill weight, so 12oz of fill (600fp down or the equivalent synthetic). So, the total jacket would be 27oz (or less because you don’t need baffles in a synthetic jacket). That is 113% as heavy, not 200% as heavy.

In a typical casual or ski jacket, using heavier face fabrics and more features on the garment, that difference gets even smaller!

I am not against down, I love it, and have many down pieces. I was only correcting factual errors.
 

Ken_R

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Yes, and I mentioned those drawbacks, I was only disagreeing with the statement that synthetics don’t work in the cold.


I think your math,”it would weigh twice as much” is probably not correct.


I am not sure what the specs on your parka are, but let’s take the MB Permafrost Parka. A fairly lightweight (lighter than you’d usually want to ski in) super warm down parka with baffled construction.

It is 24`oz total, with 9 oz of 800fp down., That means 15oz is fabric and notions. If you filled it with synthetic insulation, the best of wich are equal to about 600fp down, you would need 33% more fill weight, so 12oz of fill (600fp down or the equivalent synthetic). So, the total jacket would be 27oz (or less because you don’t need baffles in a synthetic jacket). That is 113% as heavy, not 200% as heavy.

In a typical casual or ski jacket, using heavier face fabrics and more features on the garment, that difference gets even smaller!

Well, I am talking about products that are available and/or I have seen. Your theory is correct but is there an actual product like the one you describe?

@Monique , that sucks. Down rules for cold weather bags, glad you found an alternative.
 

Slim

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On the plus side, synthetics don't mind being stuffed in a small space for long periods of time, and they dry quickly.

Synthetics are actually far easier damaged by stuffing than down. Synthetics should never be stuffed tightly (if you can afford not to), whereas down can handle it for decent amounts of time.

From REI:
Cons of synthetics
  • Heavier and bulkier than down insulation
  • Offers less warmth for its weight than down
  • Less durable than down; insulating power gets reduced each time the bag is stuffed into a stuff sack

From Andrew Skurka:
“ And, equally important, down is a better long-term investment — my heavily-used down pieces are almost as warm now as they were when new, whereas my synthetic-fill pieces are limp, lifeless, and needing replacement after just a season of daily use.”
 

Monique

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Synthetics are actually far easier damaged by stuffing than down. Synthetics should never be stuffed tightly (if you can afford not to), whereas down can handle it for decent amounts of time.

From REI:
Cons of synthetics
  • Heavier and bulkier than down insulation
  • Offers less warmth for its weight than down
  • Less durable than down; insulating power gets reduced each time the bag is stuffed into a stuff sack

From Andrew Skurka:
“ And, equally important, down is a better long-term investment — my heavily-used down pieces are almost as warm now as they were when new, whereas my synthetic-fill pieces are limp, lifeless, and needing replacement after just a season of daily use.”

Oops. Thanks!

I don't use my synthetic stuff anywhere close to daily, so I should be good there!
 

Wilhelmson

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I was wearing 3 mid weights with HH primaloft gold in -5 degrees with 20 mph wind and stayed relatively warm on the lift, but was expecting to be cold anyways. I think the jackets are made lighter to perform better with exercise while providing more warmth than a basic shell.
 

David

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With sleeping bags its a different deal since synth. insulated designs get really heavy and bulky. Dont think there is a synth. insulated bag rated lower than 15º-20ºF.

Huh?! I think every sleeping bag company makes one! I love my Wiggy's!
 

AmyPJ

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I don’t get it (or I do).
Helly makes great stuff, and VR has to be their most high profile snow sports customer.
Why do we sport their least advanced outerwear?
$
Holy cow, same thing at my mountain. Heaviest stinkin' HH jacket and pants SHELLS that made me sweat like a pig, and didn't repel a damn thing! I don't miss wearing those sweat bags at all LOL! I was also frustrated because I too know that they make really good stuff.
 

François Pugh

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With sleeping bags its a different deal since synth. insulated designs get really heavy and bulky. Dont think there is a synth. insulated bag rated lower than 15º-20ºF.

Oh they make 'em all right, http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/woods-yukon-10-sleeping-bag-45-c-0765526p.html , a little bulky though. Trouble with down is it ain't so good when it gets wet. For my canoe tripping I've settled on a TNF Cat's Meow -rated to +20 F, but really only good for me down to about 35 F. I guess I'm cold blooded.
 

Scruffy

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Scruffy asked: Why wouldn't you want to layer?


QUOTE="TonyPlush, post: 194260, member: 2663"]

Cost, simplicity, and bulk.

[/QUOTE]

Tony thanks for your answer. I personally find there's nothing more simple, versatile, and in some cases it could be a life saver, than properly layering for outdoor activities. If done right it's not that bulky or expansive, and you'll use all the layers on their own.

Good luck with whatever you decide. w
 

dovski

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You need a Smith Vantage helmet also to be really cold...
-sorry, couldn't resist.
Cantuna has your answer.

Note to self: avoid any product used by pnw'ers that claims to be warm.
In PNW you just wear a shell with a base layer and ski your brains out to stay warm. When I go back to Alberta I sometimes have to double up on the mid-layer if it is really cold.
 

Nancy Hummel

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I don’t get it (or I do).
Helly makes great stuff, and VR has to be their most high profile snow sports customer.
Why do we sport their least advanced outerwear?
$

We have HH at Aspen. It is a totally different material than the Vail blue suits. Different colors for pants and jackets is a better visual for students.
 

Ken_R

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Oh they make 'em all right, http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/woods-yukon-10-sleeping-bag-45-c-0765526p.html , a little bulky though. Trouble with down is it ain't so good when it gets wet. For my canoe tripping I've settled on a TNF Cat's Meow -rated to +20 F, but really only good for me down to about 35 F. I guess I'm cold blooded.

That bag is a joke. Good for car camping I guess. But no way would I trust it with my life in the backcountry during the winter. Yes, there are some good 0º rated synthetic insulated bags (like the Marmot Trestles) but in practice they are about as warm as a good 15º rated down bag like the Marmot helium (which I own) but the synth. bag weights twice as much and takes at least twice the amount of space.

Screen Shot 2018-01-16 at 7.22.24 PM.png
 

David

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I've used my 20° Wiggy's in sub zero and was plenty warm enough!
 

Blue Streak

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Holy cow, same thing at my mountain. Heaviest stinkin' HH jacket and pants SHELLS that made me sweat like a pig, and didn't repel a damn thing! I don't miss wearing those sweat bags at all LOL! I was also frustrated because I too know that they make really good stuff.
1) Either the people who make the uniform decisions don't have to wear them, or
2) VR management cares more about cost and durability than employee comfort and satisfaction, or
3) both.
 

Blue Streak

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Yes, and I mentioned those drawbacks, I was only disagreeing with the statement that synthetics don’t work in the cold.


I think your math,”it would weigh twice as much” is probably not correct.


I am not sure what the specs on your parka are, but let’s take the MB Permafrost Parka. A fairly lightweight (lighter than you’d usually want to ski in) super warm down parka with baffled construction.

It is 24`oz total, with 9 oz of 800fp down., That means 15oz is fabric and notions. If you filled it with synthetic insulation, the best of wich are equal to about 600fp down, you would need 33% more fill weight, so 12oz of fill (600fp down or the equivalent synthetic). So, the total jacket would be 27oz (or less because you don’t need baffles in a synthetic jacket). That is 113% as heavy, not 200% as heavy.

In a typical casual or ski jacket, using heavier face fabrics and more features on the garment, that difference gets even smaller!

I am not against down, I love it, and have many down pieces. I was only correcting factual errors.
Wow! You had me at "notions," whatever those are!
 

Slim

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Wow! You had me at "notions," whatever those are!
Wikipedia: “In sewing and haberdashery, notions are small objects or accessories, including items that are sewn or otherwise attached to a finished article, such as buttons, snaps, and collar stays.[2][3][4]

Notions matter, since in lightweight clothing the fabric weights are so low, that notions start making up a significant percentage of total garment weight.
 

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