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A little disappointed with my first "premium" ski jacket.

TonyPlush

Getting off the lift
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So I picked up the Helly Hansen Alpha 3.0 ski jacket to replace my old Burton snowboard jacket, and paid a pretty penny to do so. Needless to say, I was excited.

First test run, I took the dog for a walk in 0 degree F temps wearing a white tshirt, flannel button down, and the HH Alpha jacket. And... I was disappointingly cold.

I went back inside, threw on my cheap, 3-in-1 jacket picked up for $10 from a thrift shop, and found it to be noticeably warmer.

Comparing the two side by side, it almost felt like the massive breathability of the HH was letting some cold air sneak in; the arms felt breezy compared to the impenetrable, canvas like material on the cheap 3-in-1. Like a much less severe difference between a winter coat and a sweatshirt.

Today I did another test in 10 degree F temps. I compared the Burton with 60 grams of base-level synethic insulation against the 80 grams of primaloft in the HH, and overall my body temp felt similar. But again, the HH material felt more exposed somehow.

So, long story short - obviously the highly breathable fabrics help you from turning into a swamp during exertion, but are they actually a little cooler overall than the cheaper options? Or is it the sort of thing where you have to get moving and exercising before the heat kicks in?

I know Under Armour cold gear is like this - wear it without moving and you hardly notice it's there, but work up a sweat and it will trap that heat like your life depends on it. Are highly breathable, premium quality jackets similar? Or is my expensive HH Alpha just a dud?
 

Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
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I don't think 60-80 grams of Primaloft is enough insulation to keep you warm at those temps without any real output on your part. From what I have read that is equal to 500-550 weight down, which is not enough for those temps. I don't think it has anything to do with it being a "premium" jacket.
 

crgildart

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Looks like a nice jacket. Is it possible that it's a tad big on you allowing cold air to leak in? I agree, for the price and description it should be sufficient for temps down to below zero with a base layer,. mid layer, and maybe a sweater depending how cold it really is..

https://www.hellyhansen.com/en_us/alpha-3-0-jacket-65551
 

cantunamunch

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I went back inside, threw on my cheap, 3-in-1 jacket picked up for $10 from a thrift shop, and found it to be noticeably warmer.

Comparing the two side by side, it almost felt like the massive breathability of the HH was letting some cold air sneak in; the arms felt breezy compared to the impenetrable, canvas like material on the cheap 3-in-1.

You are not wrong.

Today I did another test in 10 degree F temps. I compared the Burton with 60 grams of base-level synethic insulation against the 80 grams of primaloft in the HH, and overall my body temp felt similar. But again, the HH material felt more exposed somehow.

Again you are not wrong.

So, long story short - obviously the highly breathable fabrics help you from turning into a swamp during exertion, but are they actually a little cooler overall than the cheaper options? Or is it the sort of thing where you have to get moving and exercising before the heat kicks in?

There is a third answer - the air exchange rate is substantially controlled by your mid layer. In a breathable jacket, it is the midlayer's job to create a temperature differential between skin and outside air. Not the jacket's.

I know Under Armour cold gear is like this - wear it without moving and you hardly notice it's there, but work up a sweat and it will trap that heat like your life depends on it.

This is why I dislike UA cold gear - no matter what midlayer I wear it feels like I'm a wrestler trying to make weight.

Are highly breathable, premium quality jackets similar? Or is my expensive HH Alpha just a dud?

It is NOT a dud. It is breathable enough that it will not form perspiration ice on the inside of the coat - that is a good thing. Your midlayer is what is managing the air exchange. If you have a highly wicking midlayer with low through airflow (polar weight fleece for example) your HH will feel fine without getting swampy. If you are planning on standing around, use a low airflow puffy type insulator as your midlayer. Either way, active, or inactive, you have to fill the inside with something that controls airflow. If you don't - it turns into a spring skiing jacket.

There are wind-proofier jackets out there. But yours is not a dud.


EDIT: Think of your jacket as the outer wall of a house. No matter how good that wall is, you have to fill the space between the joists completely with task appropriate insulation, or the house will be uncomfortable. Your flannel button down is , in this analogy, equivalent to stapling horse blankets to the inside of the joists.
 
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Analisa

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It's probably the "H2Flow" construction that they use that bothers you (basically holes in the insulation for venting), which seems pretty geared towards hiking/high output skiing, or in an area where you need a little step up from an un-insulated shell.

The insulation weight (even before taking H2Flow into consideration) is the same as the MHW jacket I wear with a baselayer for PNW skiing, which tends to be on the warmer side. I generally add a midlayer for interior BC.

Not a dud jacket, just maybe not the best choice if you're looking for a jacket that does double duty around town/lower output activities. I agree that a mid-layer would probably help. Something with a bit more wind-resistance than a basic fleece might help in terms of the breatheability. Marmot's Ether Driclime is my personal favorite, but options like the Nanopuff, Nano Air, Atom SL or LT, or any of the Dyanfit mid-layers are ones I see around the resort fairly often.
 

James

Out There
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You need a Smith Vantage helmet also to be really cold...
-sorry, couldn't resist.
Cantuna has your answer.

Note to self: avoid any product used by pnw'ers that claims to be warm.
 
Thread Starter
TS
TonyPlush

TonyPlush

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Looks like a nice jacket. Is it possible that it's a tad big on you allowing cold air to leak in? I agree, for the price and description it should be sufficient for temps down to below zero with a base layer,. mid layer, and maybe a sweater depending how cold it really is..

https://www.hellyhansen.com/en_us/alpha-3-0-jacket-65551
I don't think so. I went from a large to a medium on this one, and the overall fit is much slimmer than my other jackets.
 

Josh Matta

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I wish HH would stop making all insulated gear including what the Vail uniforms are.
 
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Thread Starter
TS
TonyPlush

TonyPlush

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You are not wrong.



Again you are not wrong.



There is a third answer - the air exchange rate is substantially controlled by your mid layer. In a breathable jacket, it is the midlayer's job to create a temperature differential between skin and outside air. Not the jacket's.



This is why I dislike UA cold gear - no matter what midlayer I wear it feels like I'm a wrestler trying to make weight.



It is NOT a dud. It is breathable enough that it will not form perspiration ice on the inside of the coat - that is a good thing. Your midlayer is what is managing the air exchange. If you have a highly wicking midlayer with low through airflow (polar weight fleece for example) your HH will feel fine without getting swampy. If you are planning on standing around, use a low airflow puffy type insulator as your midlayer. Either way, active, or inactive, you have to fill the inside with something that controls airflow. If you don't - it turns into a spring skiing jacket.

There are wind-proofier jackets out there. But yours is not a dud.


EDIT: Think of your jacket as the outer wall of a house. No matter how good that wall is, you have to fill the space between the joists completely with task appropriate insulation, or the house will be uncomfortable. Your flannel button down is , in this analogy, equivalent to stapling horse blankets to the inside of the joists.
Interesting. Sounds like I need to up my mid-layer game then, which is a little disappointing. I kind of hoped this would be a one and done purchase, especially since it cost so much more than my previous gear, and is billed as an insulated jacket and not a shell.

Then again, maybe it will be a different ball game when I'm lapping runs in the 10-30 degree Rockies versus walking the dog in the subzero Midwest.
 

cantunamunch

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Interesting. Sounds like I need to up my mid-layer game then, which is a little disappointing. I kind of hoped this would be a one and done purchase, especially since it cost so much more than my previous gear, and is billed as an insulated jacket and not a shell..

You can look at it that way...if it was my jacket I'd probably prefer to look at it as "OK, it's insulated but it's just as versatile as a shell. It might be a trifle heavier than a shell but I'm more resistant to contact-cold like when resting on a cold chairlift".

To my mind HH jackets will always be associated with descending to Pinkham Notch -> I took my backpack off outside the hut and I immediately became a steaming fountain of visible vapour. It was breathable alright.
 

Scruffy

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Interesting. Sounds like I need to up my mid-layer game then, which is a little disappointing. I kind of hoped this would be a one and done purchase, especially since it cost so much more than my previous gear, and is billed as an insulated jacket and not a shell.

Then again, maybe it will be a different ball game when I'm lapping runs in the 10-30 degree Rockies versus walking the dog in the subzero Midwest.

Why wouldn't you want to layer?
 

Jilly

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Yes, a 200 g insulated jacket is warm enough.....provided you also have a poly thermal base layer under another base layer, under a thick fleece under a thick sweater under a down filled vest, under that jacket.

-25C at Tremblant...base layer, 1/4 zip, down sweater and Avalanche jacket....Might switch out the down for fleece. Salomon comes out when it's -5 or better.
 

Blue Streak

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I wish HH would stop making all insulated gear including what the Vial uniforms are.
Vail uniforms are blue firefighter suits - except heavier. Breathable? Not so much.
Warm? Well yeah.
Like taking a blue polypropylene tarp and duct taping moving blankets to it.
Hate them in all but the most frigid conditions.
 

Josh Matta

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yeah that is why there is no sense in putting anyone in insulated anything.....

thanks for confirming how bad they are.
 

Slim

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@TonyPlush : I live in MN (and further North than you;-) and can tell you that for longer outings, including dog walking, a more breathable outer layer is a great benefit in very cold weather. As the outside temperature drops, the dew point for the humid air coming off your body can be inside your clothing, leading to moisture and then ice.
Sure, in very windy and cold weather it’s not as nice, but it’s much easier to add warmth or wind resistance thanto deal with a garment that’s to hot or not breathable enough. There is very little you can do about that. Since temperature varies day to day, and even hour by hour.

The other point is duration:
The first 20 minutes of any activity (including dog walking) you will be cold, as your body heats up.
The longer you plan on staying out, the worse of a problem moisture build up is.
30 minutes? No problem
2 hours? If the garment is low enough in breathability, and high enough in wind resistance and insulation, you’ll be ok
All day? At the end of the day, you will be damp. At the same time the sun goes down and it cools off. Now you are really uncomfortable.
Multi day? This is heading into danger (hypothermia) quickly.

Then, you seem to think that a more expensive jacket should be warmer. That is incorrect. It’s easy to make a warm jacket, just adds lots of insulation and use a wind proof face fabric.

The reason you pay a higher price is:
  • Features. Every feature adds cost. Vents, pockets,hood, different fabrics in different areas, articaulted sleeves, etc, etc.
  • marketing and R&D (research, testing, sponsored athletes)
  • Lighter for the same warmth (1000fp down vs synthetic)
  • Quality of materials and construction
  • Breathability or waterproofness. And even more so, both at the same time.
 

Erik Timmerman

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Vail uniforms are blue firefighter suits - except heavier. Breathable? Not so much.
Warm? Well yeah.
Like taking a blue polypropylene tarp and duct taping moving blankets to it.
Hate them in all but the most frigid conditions.

:(
 

crgildart

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Vail uniforms are blue firefighter suits - except heavier. Breathable? Not so much.
Warm? Well yeah.
Like taking a blue polypropylene tarp and duct taping moving blankets to it.
Hate them in all but the most frigid conditions.

yeah that is why there is no sense in putting anyone in insulated anything.....

thanks for confirming how bad they are.


Ya but don't you get a free helmet??:huh:
 

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