A Fundamental Paradox in Skiing

[L&AirC]

par·a·dox
noun

1. a seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true.

The safest way to ski is counter to human intuition, so it becomes a struggle for those of us who are newer skiers. We need to embrace what appears to be danger, and launch our bodies downhill.

Let's pause here for a second and picture the situation. We are on our skis, ready to start a run. Downhill from us is a slope that could accelerate us toward an out-of-control slide and injury, or worse. We know that. Our brain knows that. We are new, or relatively new, to skiing, so we still don't feel confident enough on skis. However, behind us, is what we perceive as safety: the hill. Land. Something to hold on to, and avoid sliding. So we fall back to the hill, away from downhill.

I want to make a comment about the bolded part. I don't think this is why we do this, though many come to this conclusion by reasoning things out. If leaning down the hill is counterintuitive to "safe", than leaning back into the hill must be safe, right?

My view and I'm pretty sure many others have the same belief, is that we don't intuitively lean down the hill because we are used to moving much slower than on skis so if we don't want to fall over, we have to lean back when compared to the slope we're on. If you were walking down the same slope you're skiing on, leaning down the hill would make you fall. We like being balanced on our feet with regards to gravity, no to be confused with the fall line. At speed, things change.

Consider these:

1) You body position skiing down a slope and your body position side slipping down the same slope.

2) Your body position walking down a flight a stairs and running down the same.

3) Your body position walking down a hill and running down it.

In #1, your body is leaning down the hill to ski and more upright to side slip (like when standing)
In #2 and #3, "most" people don't lean down the hill or stairs when running down them. They tend to just take a wider stride and let gravity do the rest. High end runners do lean down the hill when running, but for them too, it is counter intuitive and they have to work at it. This is why many runners don't like running down hill because they aren't leaning down the hill so each step they are "catching" themselves and it puts a lot of pressure on the joints and muscles.

So I don't think it is so much we are leaning back for the safety of the mountain. We are leaning back because all of our lives, this is how we kept from falling over. When we put skis on, our base of support is now ten times (i guess) longer than when barefoot and is a contributing factor why when side slipping, we're more upright. When sideslipping, the skis are about the same width as are feet.

Anyways, I just wanted to mention this as a different view of why we do it.

Ken

 

[LiquidFeet]

L&AirC just mentioned that "most" people don't lean down the hill or stairs when running down them. They tend to just take a wider stride and let gravity do the rest. High end runners do lean down the hill when running, but for them too, it is counter intuitive and they have to work at it. This is why many runners don't like running down hill because they aren't leaning down the hill so each step they are "catching" themselves and it puts a lot of pressure on the joints and muscles.

I'm no elite runner. But I do run technical single track trails in the woods, and they are full of obstacle-filled downhills. Disclaimer: in the one trail race I did, my goal was to not come in last. I came in next-to-last; success! My focus is form and proprioception, not speed.

Teaching myself to get my CoM ahead of my feet and keep it there on the rocky downhills has been a chore, as L&SirC indicates above. Fear of a face plant on granite makes doing this counter-intuitive. But the work of overcoming that inbuilt caution has been well worth it. The downhills are now my favorite parts of the runs, flowing and full of bliss ... no more knee-grinding hi-impact foot plants. The downhills are free-flowing with gravity in charge; I just have to keep up with it.

I find it best to get keep that CoM ahead of feet NOT by bending forward at the ankles (as in skiing) but by planting the stance foot not ahead out in front but back up under me - or even a bit back behind - and then extending it backwards as far as possible to keep the stride long. This lengthened stride is what creates that sense of flow, along with keeping the foot on the ground under and behind me and not ever out in front.

Moving downhill with gravity can get quite counter-intuitive.

 

[Marker]

Even as high expert I almost never go and ski steeper terrain or hard conditions unless that is what it currently "fun". Fun is entirely subjective but for me, its finding smooth lines on soft snow, or at least smooth lines, some day I am a masochist and go to the steepest and toughest terrain open try my damnest to make it as smooth as possible. what lets me make it smooth is all that messing around on flat non groomed terrain that I spend the vast majority of my time on.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I've been trying to do this the last few years, but few PA resorts leave green and blue terrain ungroomed. Moving to Killington as my home mountain opened up my options last year. I'll have to put this more into practice this year.

 

[tromano]

When running, you have better traction when your whole foot is touching the ground, when skinning, you want the whole skin engaged on the snow. When skiing down hill, same thing, be balanced over the ski and use all of it.

L&AirC just mentioned that "most" people don't lean down the hill or stairs when running down them. They tend to just take a wider stride and let gravity do the rest. High end runners do lean down the hill when running, but for them too, it is counter intuitive and they have to work at it. This is why many runners don't like running down hill because they aren't leaning down the hill so each step they are "catching" themselves and it puts a lot of pressure on the joints and muscles.

I'm no elite runner. But I do run technical single track trails in the woods, and they are full of obstacle-filled downhills. Disclaimer: in the one trail race I did, my goal was to not come in last. I came in next-to-last; success! My focus is form and proprioception, not speed.

Teaching myself to get my CoM ahead of my feet and keep it there on the rocky downhills has been a chore, as L&SirC indicates above. Fear of a face plant on granite makes doing this counter-intuitive. But the work of overcoming that inbuilt caution has been well worth it. The downhills are now my favorite parts of the runs, flowing and full of bliss ... no more knee-grinding hi-impact foot plants. The downhills are free-flowing with gravity in charge; I just have to keep up with it.

I find it best to get keep that CoM ahead of feet NOT by bending forward at the ankles (as in skiing) but by planting the stance foot not ahead out in front but back up under me - or even a bit back behind - and then extending it backwards as far as possible to keep the stride long. This lengthened stride is what creates that sense of flow, along with keeping the foot on the ground under and behind me and not ever out in front.

Moving downhill with gravity can get quite counter-intuitive.

Running downhill is super fun.

 

[Doby Man]

I, at one time, surmised that ski instructors should teach beginners to ski in the back seat and on the inside ski so aggressively that the student learns, on the onset, in a manner that immediately puts them in such dire straits that they learn what not to do based on pure survival instincts. I referred to it as “reverse psychology negative reinforcement shock training”. I experimented with it one season and taught every single beginner skier I was assigned to ski this way. I found it fortunate that I had hundreds of beginners that year. Though, they were all “one and dones” so I was never able to ascertain my experimental success in the long run. Though, I can easily imagine that those not killed or maimed early on became experts by the end of the season. While there were many serious injuries which led to legal issues for the ski school and my eventual dismissal, true visionaries are always punished … on the onset. While I won’t mention the ski area by name to protect the identities of those involved, that season was reported in the local news as the “red carpet disaster of 1997”. Emergency room visits spiked at the local hospitals which led to an investigation by the Dept. of Health. To make a long story short, people really like to make a big deal about everything these days. The situation was a bit dire and shocking but I learned what not to teach by pure instinct. So, I guess, fundamentally, the concept does work after all, paradoxically speaking. So sue me! No … wait, don’t.

 

[Bolder]

When running, you have better traction when your whole foot is touching the ground, when skinning, you want the whole skin engaged on the snow. When skiing down hill, same thing, be balanced over the ski and use all of it.



Running downhill is super fun.

It is when you're young. When you've had two expensive hip surgeries, it isnt.

I think this gets to the heart of the OP's post: I started to go to relatively steep runs. I probably felt that I needed to prove something by skiing on advanced slopes. Long story short, I wasn't skiing them — I was coming down them in a really ugly way. It wasn't enjoyable. But, even more regrettable, I acquired movement patterns that I am still working to get rid of.

Once you have a few basics down, you can get your self down anything if you don't really fear the consequences. That's where I acquired bad habits as a kid, and after my own 25-year layoff, I finally had to admit to myself that I couldn't break them without a professional intervention (i.e. private lessons). Last winter I stayed mostly on blue and red runs, avoided blacks unless I had to, and had a couple of mini-breakthroughs.

Now, as someone who's watching his wife struggle as an adult learner. the OP is also right to zero on in the paradox that the fall line is the best place to ski, but also the most dangerous. That has been her stumbling block

 

[Pequenita]

Running downhill is super fun.

It is when you're young. When you've had two expensive hip surgeries, it isnt.

It’s fun, even after two knee surgeries and a broken leg. It just gets tiring fast to do it in a way that doesn’t put all the stress on the joints.

 

[LiquidFeet]

It’s fun, even after two knee surgeries and a broken leg. It just gets tiring fast to do it in a way that doesn’t put all the stress on the joints.

Alternative results, maybe because of different pitches or lengths of hills:

When running downhill on New England woodland trails, if I keep my body ahead of my feet, there is no stress on the joints and no fatigue. But getting to the point of being able to do that has required a bit of psychological work (for me).

--Foot plant below CoM, not ahead (essential, fundamental)
--Extend aft, keeping foot on ground as long as possible (also essential, fundamental).
--Employ a real toe-off at the end (optional, for added speed)
--Result is absolutely no knee impact, and no fatigue.
--My results apply only to NE trails with short downhills, strewn with obstacles (granite rock gardens). I run S.L.O.W.L.Y. on New England twisty-turny-uppie-downie trails). And I wear body armor, since I'm old and clumsy and don't want to endure another lost season at my age. I'm somewhat obsessed with running the downhills right now. It's the last thing I focus on before the mountains open for business so it's always on my mind.

 

[hrstrat57]

The magic trick of skiing, kinda like golf. Gotta hit down on iron shots to make the ball go up.....

Lito was the first to make this ski magic all crystal clear for me.