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mdf

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Except that many backseat skiers not only turn that way, they do it continuously. They just can't turn as effectively, and are prone to the oft seen back seat spin-out.


I think that is asking too much of any adolescent skier, and will hold any skier back for too long. I think it's a fine thing to ski a slightly harder trail once a day or so to test what you've learned, find your weak spots, feel the wind in your hair, seek adventure. Take what you discovered back to your "confident" terrain. I do agree that skiing a trail that is so far beyond your ability such that you are in survival mode teaches nothing worth learning.
I always liked the one too hard, one too easy, one just right trail progression. I needed that hard trail to see where my technique (or psyche) failed when more was asked of it. I agree that too may too-hard trails will reinforce bad habits.
 
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Mendieta

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I always liked the one too hard, one too easy, one just right trail progression. I needed that hard trail to see where my technique (or psyche) failed when more was asked of it. I agree that too may too-hard trails will reinforce bad habits.

I hear you both (also @PisteOff ). I also find that venturing a little off my limits, now and then, gives me a lot more confidence when I go back to my regular terrain. A short incursion can help you be more aggressive in the terrain you should be skiing anyways. So, for me, it is "a few too easy" (to warm up and be as aggressive as I care for), one too hard, and most of the rest at my right level, sort of thing.

Having said all that, I wanted a clear, straightforward message for the beginner or casual skier reading the article. But I do love a deeper discussion here for those with an interesting in diving deeper! (steeper? :) )
 

PisteOff

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I hear you both (also @PisteOff ). I also find that venturing a little off my limits, now and then, gives me a lot more confidence when I go back to my regular terrain. A short incursion can help you be more aggressive in the terrain you should be skiing anyways. So, for me, it is "a few too easy" (to warm up and be as aggressive as I care for), one too hard, and most of the rest at my right level, sort of thing.

Having said all that, I wanted a clear, straightforward message for the beginner or casual skier reading the article. But I do love a deeper discussion here for those with an interesting in diving deeper! (steeper? :) )
@ChunderBlunder and myself are constantly pushing ourselves deeper and steeper. He gets frustrated with me because he thinks I attack it to conservatively. Then he'll get mad at me when I throw us down a black bump run. :roflmao: I've said many of the things mentioned in this thread to him. Taking inadequate skill to steeper terrain doesn't necessarily equate to getting better. You do have to taste it though. You have to make friends with speed and the fall line. You can know what to do, but having the balance skills and fast twitch muscle responses to navigate it are another thing. Being able to look downhill and just allow yourself/trust yourself to absorb terrain takes some getting used to. We are constantly progressing it just doesn't happen fast enough for the young man. :rolleyes: I think the biggest thing we've done to help ourselves progress is to get off trail. Learning to roll with whatever you encounter has been big, at least for me. Every bump run, every chopped up, over-skied, crusty, piled up, lightly treed run we've been through has improved our skiing and helped to build that balance and the necessary confidence. Having both of us running GoPro's gives us the opportunity to see one another skiing and evaluate what we are doing, both right and wrong. A lot has been learned from the video. I embrace the process and I am already excited for this season and where it will take our abilities. We improved a lot last year. Stoked!! :cool::beercheer:
 

Andy Mink

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One thing that I brought up in another thread (What makes an expert maybe?) is consistency. As you move forward and start on new terrain types you'll find one day you're on it, the next not so much. I think in those cases you go back to your harder "just right" runs and work on your skills that you obviously have (you skied the harder run really well one day, right?) but don't yet have the consistency to do every time. What made it good one day and not the next? Self critique and being honest with yourself about what you can and can't do is crucial. Annoying and frustrating, yes, but crucial. Brain, meet body. Body, meet brain. NOW GET ALONG, DAMMIT!
 

Kbat117

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I instructed for my first time last seasons and noticed adults were the hardest ones to get out of the backset. With a kid, I could just tell them some analogy and the would instantly be in the right spot. But adults, that's a tougher hill to conquer (pun intended).

I really like this thread. It has given me a lot of inspiration for how to better convey my message to future students. I particularly like the "bend you ankles" thing.
 

CalG

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Though I do not "instruct" EVER! I have found that many GOOD habits come from learning on terrain that is not in any way intimidating.

In particular for this thread, think of the skier's intent and actions if THEY are wishing for, and driving for MORE SPEED. Their intent will be forward, their posture will be forward, their efforts will be forward. Reaching to go down the fall line.

Without fear!

Win Win Win!

Practice on "fearless terrain"!
 

LiquidFeet

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go fast this way:
road runner running faster copy.png


(edited to remove the slow version :)
 
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dbostedo

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^^^
Something I'll note regarding those pictures and to reiterate the point of this thread... the "go slow this way" should only be used when you actually intend to brake and/or stop, not during normal skiing/turns.

I.e., to control your speed during normal skiing, you should not be leaning back and putting extra weight on the tails of the skis. When you do that you lose a lot of control over the ski, it's harder to turn, and the skis are likely to run away from you and actually speed you up.

I was (still am?) an inveterate back-seat skier, and it took me several lessons and a lot of days to really "get" that moving myself a bit more forward and downhill would actually help me control things better as the terrain got steeper.

Which is the whole point of this thread. :D
 

Craig Scott

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This issue is as old as skiing and has been a challenge for generations. I taught for many years on a hill that went from a nice green to a pretty dark blue with nearly nothing in between.
Developed a teaching pattern of during the transition from the greens would discuss and instill in students in the virtues of completing a turn to control their speed. A part of that was showing the students that when turned across the hill they were in essence creating a flat area where the speed would be controlled, and the lower support held them solidly on the hill (the downhill ski). Spending a little time learning what happened with different pressures on the ski helped a lot too, weight back the tips turned into the fall line weight forward they turned up the hills. I tried to let the student DISCOVER the benefit of standing solidly on the lowest support (downhill or outside ski as the turn progressed), it worked pretty well.
3 other points that I tried to instill in my aspiring intermediates, often on terrain that was really too steep for them: keep turning to control your speed. Shopping for turns was a great way to find yourself in a defensive mode. keep your bellybutton pointed at the lodge so you only have 1/2 as much of your body to turn. Look down the hill, if you see your skis you will be on the back of your skis and turning down the hill.

This stuff ain't rocket surgery, you just need to show your brain why it is a really good idea, and make it a subconscious activity.
I am at a stage where I understand that making turns controls speed. My problem is I feel like I'm making too many turns and am not able to let myself get too fast. It's at higher speeds that I start to lose control over my skis and then am forced to bail out into another speed-killing turn. Perhaps my lack of control is not putting enough weight toward the ski tips - that is, I'm sitting back. That's something to work on. Otherwise, would longer skis help with stability (I'm 6'1" 205lbs and am skiing Rosi E84s at 178 cm)? Thanks for listening.
 

Craig Scott

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This is topic I bring up a lot when bootfitting. The majority of the time, when a skier's toes are hitting the front of the boot, they are in the backseat...thus in a defensive position and accelerating. When the heel is solidly in the pocket, knees are bent, the tips are pressured, they are in an offensive position and controlling their speed.
AS a bootfitter, what's your opinion of custom footbeds and /or other heel lift devices to help that forward press?
 

Seldomski

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I.e., to control your speed during normal skiing, you should not be leaning back and putting extra weight on the tails of the skis. When you do that you lose a lot of control over the ski, it's harder to turn, and the skis are likely to run away from you and actually speed you up.

I was (still am?) an inveterate back-seat skier, and it took me several lessons and a lot of days to really "get" that moving myself a bit more forward and downhill would actually help me control things better as the terrain got steeper.

I will just add that the reflex to lean back to slow down becomes especially troublesome as the terrain gets steeper for all the reasons you mentioned. When it gets steeper, you have to throw yourself even more strongly down the hill to maintain proper dynamic balance and control of your skis. If you lean back, you load up the tails and lose most of your ability to initiate a turn. What typically happens next is the skis accelerate as they begin to straightline, making it even harder to get on top of them.

When you lean back, you are basically doing a wheelie when you really need to brake or turn - you are lifting the 'steering wheels' on your skis by leaning back.

The lean back move is anticipatory of braking deceleration. You think 'BRAKES!!' and your reflex is to shoot your feet ahead to prepare for the braking force. However, once you do this, you are no longer able to brake or redirect on skis. Your reflex to prevent a fall actually makes things worse. I think for adults it is worse simply because this reflex is built on more years of experience, making the behavior automatic - it is really useful for avoiding a fall in almost every other situation. With skis on your feet, it's one of the worst reflexes to have.
 

Philpug

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AS a bootfitter, what's your opinion of custom footbeds and /or other heel lift devices to help that forward press?
Start with a solid foundation for the foot, and that is a footbed. Supporting the foot properly wil prevent the foot splaying wich includes relieving pressure on the toe. A heel lift can help pressure against the toe, but can change the heel pocket and how the ankle seats.
 
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Mendieta

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You think 'BRAKES!!' and your reflex is to shoot your feet ahead to prepare for the braking force. However, once you do this, you are no longer able to brake or redirect on skis. Your reflex to prevent a fall actually makes things worse. I think for adults it is worse simply because this reflex is built on more years of experience, making the behavior automatic - it is really useful for avoiding a fall in almost every other situation. With skis on your feet, it's one of the worst reflexes to have.

And that' a good summary of my write up! :thumb:

When I find myself out of balance, I love doing this drill:


It does exactly what your are describing. You can only effectively hockey stop, and slip again to stop again, if you are properly balanced.

I will just add that the reflex to lean back to slow down becomes especially troublesome as the terrain gets steeper for all the reasons you mentioned. When it gets steeper, you have to throw yourself even more strongly down the hill to maintain proper dynamic balance and control of your skis.


Yes! That's clearly shown in this video, I love the diagrams with a chair :)
 

Snuckerpooks

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A lot of sports have contradictory to common sense things about them don't they.

I think it was Tiger Woods who said, "If it feels comfortable, it probably isn't right." Meaning that if you aren't trying something new and putting yourself in new situations, you aren't improving.

It took me a long time to really see that in myself. Whether it be pinching obliques a little bit more to put the ski on a little bit more edge, or having a golf grip that restricts wrist movement (keeps consistency but feels awkward at first). Each of them feel uncomfortable at first but soon become the norm as the level improves.
 

RNZ

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One of the things that helped me years ago to understand being centered on the ski was to bend my ankles, ...

... the lower support held them solidly on the hill (the downhill ski). ...
. I tried to let the student DISCOVER the benefit of standing solidly on the lowest support (downhill or outside ski as the turn progressed), it worked pretty well.

This stuff ain't rocket surgery, you just need to show your brain why it is a really good idea, and make it a subconscious activity.

WHEN IN DOUBT....... LEAN OUT. The steeper it is the more this applies.

The thing that I see most that makes me sad for the skier, because it is probably diminishing their enjoyment, increasing their fear, and making it much harder than it is; is leaning into the hill with the straight and locked downhill leg on steeper and/or bumpy terrain. Bending the downhill leg at the ankle and knee and keeping it soft gives that solid base of support and gets the hips away from the hill and over the skis more.
 

Scruffy

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This is a hard one for beginners to grapple with. We are all a summation of our own past experiences and how we process and learn from those experiences, so one person's analogy that helps them understand and internalize this concept is possibly lost on another. Add in fear and you have a recipe for simple concept that becomes hard to learn. With that, here are a few analogies that may help. :huh: If not, feel free to ignore it. Hope these don't sound too corny for you all, but anything that helps.

What happens when you are walking in slick street shoes outside along a sidewalk in the winter and you suddenly find yourself on slick ice? You quickly shift your gate from the normal human gate cycle ( which has your body mass behind one leading foot during several phases of the cycle ) to quick short steps. Why? You instinctively know that keeping your weight ( body mass ) over your feet for most of the time as you negotiate the ice patch will help give you traction on the ice. Sticking a foot forward from your body ( momentary backseat) for an initial heel strike works well when you have foot traction, not well when it's very slippery. Same as skiing a steep slippery slope; getting your body mass over your down hill edge gives you the control you're looking for--more traction. Getting in the backseat means giving up control. There is nothing safe to cling to behind you on that slippery slope. The only way to safely navigate is to cling to that downhill edge.

If you've ever hiked down a steep pitch of loose scree or muddy clay what do you do to help gain traction? For me, I turn my downhill foot sideways to my direction of travel and really concentrate on keeping my weight out over the inside edge of my downhill hiking boot to dig into the mountainside. If I were to lean back and take my weight off the leading foot, there is a good chance I'd slide feet first down the mountain. Same concept in skiing. Your skis are an extension of your feet, not some device you ride on without controlling.
Same with a set of stairs in a house. If you've ever descended a set of wood varnished stairs in slippery socks, you know to keep your weight centered over your feet and to not lean back, or your tailbone might not be too happy with you.

You wouldn't want to drive a car from the backseat even if the backseat were equipped with steering wheel, accelerator, and brakes; you want to be upfront and in control; to see what's happening up there.
Same with skiing--scan ahead to see what's coming but focus and ski the turn directly in front of you.

Compartmentalize the steep terrain. When you have a large task ahead of you that seems insurmountable, what is an oft used metaphor? "How can we possibly get it done? One step at a time." A beginner skier will often come to the top of a steep pitch and look all the way down the hill and let fear set in. They can't imagine how they are going to ski that whole steep slope without careening out of control and crashing, and getting hurt or worst. As a beginner, you are not going to ski that steep slope ahead of you like a down hill ski racer in the Olympics, you're not even going to ski it like you do the easy green runs you are now starting to carve arc to arc. You are going to survival ski it one turn at a time. Make the first turn and plan to stop. Use turn shape and some skidding to control speed; shape your turn to a stop. Of course, refer to everything else you've learned from your instructors; hands, pole plants, upper lower body separation, etc... Keep your weight on the brakes, your downhill ski as you come to a stop. Collect yourself and make the next turn. Look ahead to see what's coming, but then compartmentalize it and focus on skiing the terrain right in front of you. As you gain confidence you'll begin to link turns, but knowing that you can stop at any time, on a dime, on any pitch.
 
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Mendieta

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As a beginner, you are not going to ski that steep slope ahead of you like a down hill ski racer in the Olympics, you're not even going to ski it like you do the easy green runs you are now starting to carve arc to arc. You are going to survival ski it one turn at a time.

Great points, and I really like the one I just quoted. IMHO, this is why you don't want to over-terrain yourself. Some instructors call these turns "patience turns". Make a round turn and trust that the turn will stop you at the end, then you start linking them. It is critical to have patience for the turn to evolve, and the steeper the terrain, the more you will speed up during the turn. That's one of the reasons why you need to choose your runs' difficulty progression wisely.

And, in passing, this is why side-slipping is something that skiers should be taught very early on. You never know when a wrong turn in a cat-track might put you in a run that is much steeper than you should be in. In that case, side-slipping is your way down. Which, btw, requires proper balance :)
 

Josh Matta

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objectively speaking there is no paradox in skiing, and your feelings on the subject hardly matter...


Which brings the next question: what can we do, besides taking lessons?

I submit that the best we can do is to avoid terrain that is beyond our current capabilities. Cutting to the chase: we ski because we want to go around the mountain; ideally, we'll be able to go everywhere. But here is an unfortunate catch-22. If we slide down a trail that is too advanced for us, we'll fall into the back seat and acquire bad habits that will take a lot of training to eradicate. I know that well, as I am fighting with that myself.

Very early in my skiing path as an adult learner, I started to go to relatively steep runs. I probably felt that I needed to prove something by skiing on advanced slopes. Long story short, I wasn't skiing them — I was coming down them in a really ugly way. It wasn't enjoyable. But, even more regrettable, I acquired movement patterns that I am still working to get rid of.

My hope is that you are a little smarter than I was, so here are my two cents. Go out there, and have fun, but move to a more difficult run only when the current run feels almost too easy. You should be able to take that run, under control, at any speed that pleases you, with any turn shape you desire. Then you move on, and the next difficulty level should be close enough to the current one that you are still under control, but with some caution. Oh, and take lessons. Doing these two things will go a long way in enabling you to ski the whole mountain much sooner than if you try to rush it.

realize that objectively speaking there is no paradox, and that people feeling on how they should ski if they contradict the physics are meaningless.

thing you can do with out taking lessons.....

get your self in the best physical shape possible, although strength and flexibility are way more important than out right endurance for alpine skiing.

take up sports/hobbies that translate to the thought processes and tactical choices of skiing. For me personally mountain biking and first person view flying both exercise my split second tactical choices of moving a body though space.

go out skiing with a purpose of beyond making turns........

Find things to turn around, make shift race courses, transitions to pump. Make turns to make these thing happen. Ideally this should all take place on terrain that is far easier than you can actually ski. Someone pushing their terrain limits is almost never learning anything positive except for how capable they are. capability will always fall short eventually, but actual ability will expand people's capability .

Even as high expert I almost never go and ski steeper terrain or hard conditions unless that is what it currently "fun". Fun is entirely subjective but for me, its finding smooth lines on soft snow, or at least smooth lines, some day I am a masochist and go to the steepest and toughest terrain open trymy damnest to make it as smooth as possible. what lets me make it smooth is all that messing around on flat non groomed terrain that I spend the vast majority of my time on.
 

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