4-Wheel Drive or Snow Tires?

[surfsnowgirl]

If you don't want the mess of swapping tires, consider the new generation of silicia-compound based AT tires that are 3PMSF rated (i.e. snow tire rated): Goodyear Duratrac, Falken AT3W, Cooper ATW. All are suitable for year round use in CO, and have mileage warranties in the 40-50k range. Come highly recommended by yours truly who ski commutes on the same roads you're talking about 40+ days a year, and spends all summer exploring dirt roads around the west. Pretty sure @nay (also local) likes his too.

If roads are open to ski resorts, you'll get there with a set of them in your FWD highlander.

THIS....... I love, love, love my Duratracs. This along with my 4x4...... there are no words.........................

 

[jmeb]

THIS....... I love, love, love my Duratracs. This along with my 4x4...... there are no words.........................

Duratracs are a super burly and versatile tire. I know many happy owners with them on Tacomas, Tundras, Jeeps, etc.

My two buddies with Cooper ATWs on their Xterras have found them to be pretty killer in the snow. Which doesn't surprise me cause the AT3 was already very good in the snow despite lack of 3PMSF designation.

@nay and I both have the Falken AT3W which is a very price-friendly tire. Mine are about 1/3rd through their treadlife at this point i would guess after 20k miles. I'll likely put another winter or two on them before moving on.

 

[jmeb]

I am actually considering thse for the Alltrack next season. I am limited to what is available in 17" options. I think I have to jump to a 215 from the 205 that comes standard.

Burly tires for an Allroad. But they sure would look rad on one.

IMHO the Coopers have slightly nicer highway manners than the Falkens or Duratracs. Although I've not A/B'd them in the same car, I've spent a bunch of miles cruising in my own and friends cars on all three of them.

 

[Ken_R]

My two buddies with Cooper ATWs on their Xterras have found them to be pretty killer in the snow. Which doesn't surprise me cause the AT3 was already very good in the snow despite lack of 3PMSF designation.

This was my second winter season with the AT3's and they performed great in truly nasty winter conditions and worked amazingly well as a summer off road tire also. Best tires I have used in an SUV.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

Duratracs are a super burly and versatile tire. I know many happy owners with them on Tacomas, Tundras, Jeeps, etc.

My two buddies with Cooper ATWs on their Xterras have found them to be pretty killer in the snow. Which doesn't surprise me cause the AT3 was already very good in the snow despite lack of 3PMSF designation.

@nay and I both have the Falken AT3W which is a very price-friendly tire. Mine are about 1/3rd through their treadlife at this point i would guess after 20k miles. I'll likely put another winter or two on them before moving on.

I'm considering trading in my Jeep for a Subaru Crosstrek and I'm pretty sure the duratracs won't fit on the cross trek which makes me sad because not only do they handle supremely but they look rather badass. I'm interested in the limited edition with the 18" wheels but since the duratracs are a truck tire I'm sure they aren't meant for the crosstrek. I'm not thrilled with their stock tires I'll be starting a thread at some point looking for recommendations for a similar meaty/aggressive tread tire that would fit the subie.

 

[nay]

Yea, we’ve listed a bunch of these tires in the Hybrid tire thread.

I do want to counter the idea that 4WD only helps with “go”. Rally car racers have locked center diffs because of how torque is infinitely biased between the front and rear axle.

This has major effects in brake force distribution and traction across the board. It won’t help you if you lock up your tires, but you really don’t want to do that independent of your drivetrain. It is worth understanding that 2WD and 4WD are not the same thing in this regard. You can make 4WD as useless as 2WD with tire choice, but the new breed of all weather tires will express that difference without the need for two sets of tires.

A FWD with good weight distribution and snow tires will generally be fine. I suspect our OP will realize quickly the value of more drivetrain in the summer with regards to getting into the millions of acres of public land that don’t exist in the east, but that’s something you tend to figure out based on how much you naturally crane your neck to look around that next bend in the road wondering where it leads, knowing that for sure it isn’t “Private Property”.

 

[Monique]

I do want to counter the idea that 4WD only helps with “go”. Rally car racers have locked center diffs because of how torque is infinitely biased between the front and rear axle.

This has major effects in brake force distribution and traction across the board. It won’t help you if you lock up your tires, but you really don’t want to do that independent of your drivetrain. It is worth understanding that 2WD and 4WD are not the same thing in this regard. You can make 4WD as useless as 2WD with tire choice, but the new breed of all weather tires will express that difference without the need for two sets of tires.

What about AWD?

Snow tires *really* help with the stopping part.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Is the Highlander 2WD or AWD? I had an AWD version back in the early '00s and it was a solid performer with snows.

I have run Hakkas and Hankooks winter tires on my Tacoma Double Cab. As good as the Hakkas were (totally recommend them as a brand in general) the Hankooks at $50 or so less a shoe are hands down the best deal and superb performers. I run them 365 days a year and they are extremely quiet on the road.

I will also agree with the comments about 4WD/AWD only being as good as your tires. It doesn't matter what you are driving if you don't have good grip with the road.

 

[Philpug]

Burly tires for an Allroad. But they sure would look rad on one.

IMHO the Coopers have slightly nicer highway manners than the Falkens or Duratracs. Although I've not A/B'd them in the same car, I've spent a bunch of miles cruising in my own and friends cars on all three of them.

Yeah, I am weighing the options for next year. My concern with some of these tires is the weight, they can be significantly heavier than traditional all season counterparts and will hurt fuel economy. My tire guy at Discount Tire is suggesting a "Light Duty" truck tire for the Alltrack because of the lousy life I am getting out of the traditional car options.

 

[nay]

I'm considering trading in my Jeep for a Subaru Crosstrek and I'm pretty sure the duratracs won't on the cross trek which makes me sad because not only do they handle supremely but they look rather badass. I'm not thrilled with the stock tires on the crosstrek so I'll be starting a thread at some point for a similar meaty/aggressive tread tire that would fit.

Why not? The Duratrac is a pretty light duty tire in this class - it’s prone to sidewall failure in more serious offroading.

I just saw a Crosstek at Loveland with BFG ko2 and I’ve seen a Lexus AWD sedan with them. Those are small tires on a Subaru so there isn’t a meaningful weight issue, they wear way better than Duratracs, and they are better in the rain.

Not sure you need a tire like that on a Sube unless it will see time in the dirt, but there’s no reason you can’t do it.

 

[jmeb]

Yea, we’ve listed a bunch of these tires in the Hybrid tire thread.

I do want to counter the idea that 4WD only helps with “go”. Rally car racers have locked center diffs because of how torque is infinitely biased between the front and rear axle.

This has major effects in brake force distribution and traction across the board. It won’t help you if you lock up your tires, but you really don’t want to do that independent of your drivetrain. It is worth understanding that 2WD and 4WD are not the same thing in this regard. You can make 4WD as useless as 2WD with tire choice, but the new breed of all weather tires will express that difference without the need for two sets of tires.

A FWD with good weight distribution and snow tires will generally be fine. I suspect our OP will realize quickly the value of more drivetrain in the summer with regards to getting into the millions of acres of public land that don’t exist in the east, but that’s something you tend to figure out based on how much you naturally crane your neck to look around that next bend in the road wondering where it leads, knowing that for sure it isn’t “Private Property”.

These are really good points re:4wd.

As an extension: we should keep in mind that 4wd != 4wd and AWD != AWD. There are so many variations out there of 4wd and AWD that making statements about what they do or don't do without considering the system in question isn't always helpful. A Land Cruiser with front, rear, and center locking diffs, is a very different beast than an F150 with 4x4 and no lockers. My AWD van from 2001, is a very different beast than a modern Audi Allroad or Subaru AWD.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

Why not? The Duratrac is a pretty light duty tire in this class - it’s prone to sidewall failure in more serious offroading.

I just saw a Crosstek at Loveland with BFG ko2 and I’ve seen a Lexus AWD sedan with them. Those are small tires on a Subaru so there isn’t a meaningful weight issue, they wear way better than Duratracs, and they are better in the rain.

Not sure you need a tire like that on a Sube unless it will see time in the dirt, but there’s no reason you can’t do it.

Good to know, thank you. I have been known to drive in dirt I find my duratracs to be exceptional in the rain as we get a ton of that here. love the aggressive tread look and I remember looking at the crosstrek tires going those are going to have to go. I'll research those other tires also.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread at all. When I had my sebring convertible I threw some yokohama tires on it and with the front wheel drive it did quite well in the winter. I had issues with deep snow due to low clearance but I drove that thing for 4 winters and had no issue. I did get rid of it as soon as I was able because living in snow country and skiing every weekend just made a awd or 4x4 more desireable.

 

[nay]

What about AWD?

Snow tires *really* help with the stopping part.

It depends on the system. Subaru still uses a center differential, but the Highlander does not and AWD is electronic fakery. This is true of most AWD, because a center diff has a space penalty and that means less cup holders.

AWD cannot infinitely bias torque in any configuration, although with electronic traction control is certainly has that effect at speed.

You don’t need a dedicated winter tire for good stopping. The BFG ko2 scored a perfect 100 on ice testing (frozen lake) when Canadian Tire did 3rd party testing in Sweden 3 years or so ago. Other tests have noted this as well.

They don’t test as highly as pure winter tires, but I see a lot of AWD owners driving at dangerous speeds in winter. I’ve tested the ko2 on ice stopping on a 14% grade near my house and climbing from a start. I can lock all three diffs, but I can walk stuff like that.

It is way more than tires, but tires are like skis. They advances in the last 5 years are unreal and a rising tide lifts all boats.

 

[Monique]

Is the Highlander 2WD or AWD? I had an AWD version back in the early '00s and it was a solid performer with snows.

2WD.

I didn't mean to hijack at all. When I had my sebring convertible I threw some yokohama tires on it and with the front wheel drive it did quite well in the winter. I had issues with deep snow due to low clearance but I drove that thing for 4 winters and had no issue.

I first moved to Colorado with a Celica convertible and shitty tires. I thought it was fine ... except yeah, I almost high centered on a big snow day. (Got to work, and they had shut down!). Then I got the Subaru with AWD, still all seasons, and that seemed fine. Then I noticed how much better my husband's AWD BMW with snow tires (actually cold weather compound) braked in the snow, so I got those, and that seems much better.

BTW, my husband DID high center that BMW on a big snow day ... pulled out of the garage, then needed to dig himself back out to drive back in.

 

[Monique]

^^ 330xi. Super relevant to this discussion

 

[Monique]

You don’t need a dedicated winter tire for good stopping. The BFG ko2 scored a perfect 100 on ice testing (frozen lake) when Canadian Tire did 3rd party testing in Sweden 3 years or so ago. Other tests have noted this as well.

They don’t test as highly as pure winter tires, but I see a lot of AWD owners driving at dangerous speeds in winter. I’ve tested the ko2 on ice stopping on a 14% grade near my house and climbing from a start. I can lock all three diffs, but I can walk stuff like that.

Could you please clarify these two statements? They seem to contradict each other.

 

[jmeb]

Could you please clarify these two statements? They seem to contradict each other.

There is more to winter testing than just ice tests. Deep snow, compacted snow, slush etc.

 

[nay]

Yeah, I am weighing the options for next year. My concern with some of these tires is the weight, they can be significantly heavier than traditional all season counterparts and will hurt fuel economy. My tire guy at Discount Tire is suggesting a "Light Duty" truck tire for the Alltrack because of the lousy life I am getting out of the traditional car options.

The penalties are not what they used to be - I’d be most concerned that stuff like wheel bearings wasn’t designed for a heavier tire, but for small tires on an AWD that seems overthinking to me.

And there is going to be some extra tire noise if you like a super refined cabin experience. It’s not much, but it’s not going to be nothing over a touring type tire.

 

[nay]

Could you please clarify these two statements? They seem to contradict each other.

It wasn’t clear if that score was in class or across classes in the test report, but I’ve read other tests that have expressed surprise at stopping distances.

When you do ice rink tests, winter tires win, but people don’t drive on ice rinks and so you’re going to get the variable of the vehicle, too.

In those Canadian Tire tests, IIRC the test vehicle was a Ford Expedition so full size SUV.

For me it’s fairly simple. If I have a highly capable drivetrain, I am going to pick an all mountain tire over an ice carver. If my drivetrain needs a lot more help, I really don’t have a choice and I’m going to need a tire quiver.

But the #1 key for me is avoiding other sliding cars, and that can mean bailing off the road or into much deeper snowplow debris. I’ll take a the off-road capable tire every day of the week, because it is vastly superior there to a road winter tire.

 

[Philpug]

The penalties are not what they used to be - I’d be most concerned that stuff like wheel bearings wasn’t designed for a heavier tire, but for small tires on an AWD that seems overthinking to me.

And there is going to be some extra tire noise if you like a super refined cabin experience. It’s not much, but it’s not going to be nothing over a touring type tire.

For me it is the MPG's. I already lost 12MPG going from the TDI to the Alltrack...I am not sure how much more I want to give up.