The Never-Ending Stöckli Discussion

[Noodler]

The center of a boot is the same no matter the length of the boot, the midpoint of an object will NEVER vary.

The position of your foot is not centered lengthwise equally in a ski boot. Your foot is pulled back rearward by the closure system. If you are in a more downsized shell, then your actual foot position over the ski will be different than in a larger oversized shell. Many skiers learn over time that they are in shells that are too large. Stories of shell downsizing of up to 2 shell sizes are common. The difference between 2 shell sizes is usually about 18-20mm. That means in the smaller shell that your foot position on the ski is now up to 10mm further forward without any change to the binding mount position (if you use the same exact factory mark when mounting).

Let me repeat this, if you use the same exact mount position for the same exact person, but in 2 different shell sizes, you will have a different position of the foot on the ski. That change in position will change the performance characteristics experienced when using the ski.

@Started at 53 - I am posting this info to help educate you, but if you really don't want to know that's fine. Please ignore my posts. You just seem to have some very strong opinions on the subject for someone who has not been skiing for very long.

 

[Started at 53]

It's interesting that you know that in your field of expertise things are often more complicated than what they appear, but you don't appreciate those same facts in other fields.

The people commenting have way more years of experience and often have really good reasons for believing as they do, and knowing that just because a company says something doesn't mean that's all there is to the issue.

My response is a big fat

I am making points based on physics, not masking fore/aft balance.

You can have all the experience you want, but the ski is designed to be pressured from a certain point (on the line).

If the experienced people you refer to can’t ski it from the line, maybe they are on the wrong skis. I am sure backseat skis are available.

Sorry, but you guys suggesting a forward mount are doing so to get more weight forward on the skis in an artificial manner.

You mention facts, I am giving you facts. They might not be what some want to hear, but they are just as you said... facts.

 

[Jersey Skier]

My response is a big fat

I am making points based on physics, not masking fore/aft balance.

You can have all the experience you want, but the ski is designed to be pressured from a certain point (on the line).

If the experienced people you refer to can’t ski it from the line, maybe they are on the wrong skis. I am sure backseat skis are available.

Sorry, but you guys suggesting a forward mount are doing so to get more weight forward on the skis in an artificial manner.

You mention facts, I am giving you facts. They might not be what some want to hear, but they are just as you said... facts.

Just curious. Why do you think Stockli chose to put 3 different mounting lines on the SR107's?

 

[RuleMiHa]

My response is a big fat

I am making points based on physics, not masking fore/aft balance.

You can have all the experience you want, but the ski is designed to be pressured from a certain point (on the line).

If the experienced people you refer to can’t ski it from the line, maybe they are on the wrong skis. I am sure backseat skis are available.

Sorry, but you guys suggesting a forward mount are doing so to get more weight forward on the skis in an artificial manner.

You mention facts, I am giving you facts. They might not be what some want to hear, but they are just as you said... facts.

No, because there are things you don't understand. Like how different skiers are positioned differently in boots and how individual anatomy plays a role. If someone has long femurs and a short torso where they can pressure a ski is going to be different from someone with short femurs and a long torso. Therefore the same spot on a ski is going to give different results.

 

[Started at 53]

The position of your foot is not centered lengthwise equally in a ski boot. Your foot is pulled back rearward by the closure system. If you are in a more downsized shell, then your actual foot position over the ski will be different than in a larger oversized shell. Many skiers learn over time that they are in shells that are too large. Stories of shell downsizing of up to 2 shell sizes are common. The difference between 2 shell sizes is usually about 18-20mm. That means in the smaller shell that your foot position on the ski is now up to 10mm further forward without any change to the binding mount position (if you use the same exact factory mark when mounting).

Let me repeat this, if you use the same exact mount position for the same exact person, but in 2 different shell sizes, you will have a different position of the foot on the ski. That change in position will change the performance characteristics experienced when using the ski.

@Started at 53 - I am posting this info to help educate you, but if you really don't want to know that's fine. Please ignore my posts. You just seem to have some very strong opinions on the subject for someone who has not been skiing for very long.

Too funny, but YES I was assuming that the boots are properly sized, I guess I should not be assuming!!!

So, assuming the skier is in the correct size boot, and his/her foot is not sliding around a few millimeters... The mid-point of the boot does not change, that fact can not even be lost in interpretation.

@Noodler , sorry, but my lack of skiing time does not take away from my extensive study into the physics behind ski design. When was the last time you went through a ski factory and had every single step explained? Had every single reason behind every little detail explained?

You made me laugh at your post above. Thanks for the chuckle.

Ski your Stockli’s where ever you like, but I think you are doing the internet a disservice with your forward mount suggestions. The Stockli Rep essentially told you that in a post a page or two back.... But I suppose you know more about the AX’s then Lindsey.

The backseat is not your friend

 

[Started at 53]

Just curious. Why do you think Stockli chose to put 3 different mounting lines on the SR107's?

Never seen them, so I have no opinion... Maybe for people with LONG Femurs

 

[BS Slarver]

The 107 is my daily driver w/ 100+ days on them and the ski feels distinctly different at all three mounting points, same skier, same leg length.
Good read on mounting points would be the Renoun Z90 discussion a few years back as it skied fine on the line and came alive when moved. Quite a few skis have 0 \ +\ -. How about delta, ramp and Q angles ? “ suggested ” mount points are just that, enough said, read some blister reviews.

The beauty of demo bindings and a skilled pilot to find what suits you the best.
Now back to the Stöckli stoke please !

 

[Noodler]

Too funny, but YES I was assuming that the boots are properly sized, I guess I should not be assuming!!!

So, assuming the skier is in the correct size boot, and his/her foot is not sliding around a few millimeters... The mid-point of the boot does not change, that fact can not even be lost in interpretation.

@Noodler , sorry, but my lack of skiing time does not take away from my extensive study into the physics behind ski design. When was the last time you went through a ski factory and had every single step explained? Had every single reason behind every little detail explained?

You made me laugh at your post above. Thanks for the chuckle.

Ski your Stockli’s where ever you like, but I think you are doing the internet a disservice with your forward mount suggestions. The Stockli Rep essentially told you that in a post a page or two back.... But I suppose you know more about the AX’s then Lindsey.

The backseat is not your friend

The disservice is that someone like yourself who has very little skiing experience and very little actual skiing skill, is making declarations regarding this sport that are incorrect. I don't want this thread closed, so I'm done with the personal credibility attacks.

Mods - please delete the offending posts if necessary, but keep the thread alive.

 

[Lorenzzo]

My response is a big fat

I am making points based on physics, not masking fore/aft balance.

You can have all the experience you want, but the ski is designed to be pressured from a certain point (on the line).

If the experienced people you refer to can’t ski it from the line, maybe they are on the wrong skis. I am sure backseat skis are available.

Sorry, but you guys suggesting a forward mount are doing so to get more weight forward on the skis in an artificial manner.

You mention facts, I am giving you facts. They might not be what some want to hear, but they are just as you said... facts.

Proof that facts, science, logic and inexperience can trump rationalizations, denial and experience.

 

[Started at 53]

@Noodler

You are a ski tester right? Do you report/review on a ski when skiing it from a non-suggested line? Or do you ski it as the company suggests and then give a report/review?

Just interested to know going forward so I can base my “very little experience” purchases on the correct information.

Thanks in advance for the clarification as I don’t ski in the backseat and don’t want to make an important purchase decision on a questionable review.

This is NOT a “personal credibility attack”, this is really important information to know about a reviewer.

 

[LindseyB]

@LindseyB - any plans of bringing back a SR 115 or SR pro in a 110+ plus or is there just not enough interest to support the size ?

Also seems to be a swing from stiff to soft skis in the SR line when the 2 year cycle changes, do you foresee that continuing?

You are correct, there is not enough demand for 115 currently. The widest will remain the 105.

Over the last three days I have skied the new SRs extensively at Alta and Deer Valley.

I can't say too much yet, but I am more excited than ever for our lineup.

 

[LindseyB]

Had the pleasure of seeing the premier of the new Warren Miller life documentary, "Ski Bum" on Friday night and skiing with the cast yesterday.

Was really fun ripping around with some of my childhood heroes.

Scot can still outski almost all the young guys, Brad Vancour is out of shape, but still can rip. Dan Egan is crazy good to this day.

Marcus Caston was a blast to ski with. Kid absolutely rips and has wonderful footwork. I hope to steal him from Blizzard someday.

When you get a chance, see this film.

 

[Lorenzzo]

You are correct, there is not enough demand for 115 currently. The widest will remain the 105.

Over the last three days I have skied the new SRs extensively at Alta and Deer Valley.

I can't say too much yet, but I am more excited than ever for our lineup.

I’m hoping the new ones capture what’s special about the 88-s but wider. That would be a must have for me.

 

[LindseyB]

I’m hoping the new ones capture what’s special about the 88-s but wider. That would be a must have for me.

Curious about which aspects of the 88 you describe as special.

 

[Started at 53]

Curious about which aspects of the 88 you describe as special.

Please delete that post otherwise he is gonna rival “War and Peace” in his response post.

I think he alternates sleeping with the AX and 88’s

 

[Lorenzzo]

Extreme versatility and playfulness/responsiveness. They’re lightweight while not skiing lightweight. They charge but I find them really easy to ski. They’re great pow skis so a little more width for certain days would be grins. They just have awesome feel.

Jay’s right I could keep going.

 

[Started at 53]

Extreme versatility and playfulness/responsiveness. They’re lightweight while not skiing lightweight. They charge but I find them really easy to ski. They’re great pow skis so a little more width for certain days would be grins. They just have awesome feel.

Jay’s right I could keep going.

My guess is that is a post from the chair, no way it would be that short from his computer

 

[Lorenzzo]

My guess is that is a post from the chair, no way it would be that short from his computer

Really flat light, I’m inside waiting on vis.

 

[LindseyB]

Really flat light, I’m inside waiting on vis.

Pm sent

 

[Freddo Bumps]

Stockli skis are designed to be skied rather than skipping and slarving.

The mounting point as defined by the company is created from two sources. 1- careful mathematics.
2- feedback from our test pilots.

Our r&d works closely with ETH Zurich as a partner. Considered the "MIT" of mechanical engineering, ETH provides tangible data feedback for materials and iterations on designs.

The mounting point is dictated by the mean of the data and thus works most of the time, but with any bell curve there can be outliers from the norms. These can be upright boot cuffs and abnormally short tib/fib to femur ratios.

These outliers do benefit from careful modification. I see about 1 in every 15 skiers that would be considered an outlier. For example, at a demo most skiers will come off a SR95 and comment about how they were surprised about how easy they turn.
Once in a while someone is upset saying the ski doesnt turn. I then move them forward 3 or 4 clicks and send then back out, usually they hit bingo and come back excited that they are turning with ease.

One thing for sure, flat light can suddenly put any of us in the back seat.

The stronger versions of the 88 are especially sensitive to this. Get in the back seat and they will ignore your input, but if you pull those heels back and trust them, they will happily obey your every desire.

Ill be with Mathieu our head of design next week at SIA and will discuss more thoroughly mounting points to see if I can glean little more insight for you guys.

All this talk that on-the-line is the only reasonable thing because Stöckli must have gotten it perfectly right seems a bit silly when the Stöckli rep A) says that the line is determined by 1) careful mathematics (which we all know requires assumptions) and 2) feedback from test pilots (who I’d guess don’t universally agree), and B) acknowledges that there are exceptions.

I’ve not once read a dogmatic statement that Stöckli must be mounted forward for everyone. Instead, I’ve read many suggestions to that effect, which a reasonable person should take as just that. Still, I have a feeling I know this guy from a golf forum and, if so, he’ll just continue to tell you you’re wrong (physics!!!) without acknowledging any assumptions he’s making or exceptions to rules. I’ll say this: if it’s the same guy, he’s been very mild so far here.