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Clemson

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Wow, a reply my the man himself, and I really appreciate your input. The SPX12's where only recommended, I did not buy them yet. It sounds to me, from what you explained, that I would be fine in the Pivot 12 set as low as 4.5 while getting used to my new skis. My reasons being I am a very tuned in skier and the descriptions I have read about the advantages of the shorter mounting seem like something I would appreciate, If they truly are the upgrade I perceive them to be I don't mind the extra dollars for something I enjoy so much. Thanks to you and all the contributors to PUGSKI, an awesome site.
 

ted

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I seem to remember some Look bindings come with toe shims to put Delta to zero in the box. Is my memory correct? If so which bindings come with the shims.

Is there any deifffernece between RockeRace 12 and SPX 12?
Thanks to any with input.
 
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Philpug

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I seem to remember some Look bindings come with toe shims to put Delta to zero in the box. Is my memory correct? If so which bindings come with the shims.

Is there any deifffernece between RockeRace 12 and SPX 12?
Thanks to any with input.
The single pivot toe bindings will come with the shims.

RockeRace heels are different than the SPX heel in that htey have a shorter mount distance and no brake options.
 

ted

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As always Quick and informative response. Do the pivot shims also fit the SPX toes?
 
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Philpug

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As always Quick and informative response. Do the pivot shims also fit the SPX toes?
If it is the singel pivot toe.
 

JimL

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I just bought some Nordica Navigator 85s, and LOOK SPX 12 where recommended to me, but after doing more research have been drawn to the Pivot 12. After a post on Reddit, asking about binding comparisons, I got a response from someone who has been working in a ski shop for 25 years who stated that, -
"Look has had the highest problem rate with the pivots. Everyone thinks pivots are the best, but they just don’t test great on a release machine and I know a few people that are amazing skiers and should have come out of them and didn’t and blew out there acl’s."

Philpug didn't address this, but, with the possible exception of the Knee binding and new Howell binding, no binding on the market is designed to prevent ACL injuries, nor does setting the binding at a lower setting decrease the likelihood of ACL injuries. This is discussed by Robert Johnson, Carl Ettlinger and Jasper Shealy in "Myths Concerning Alpine Skiing Injuries," Sports Health Nov 2009. Article here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445144/

All current bindings are designed to prevent tibial fractures, and in terms of that, the technology has been stable since the 1980's. I say possible exception of the Knee binding and Howell binding because, although lateral release at the back should in theory reduce the likelihood of ACL injury, there is currently no published injury data in skiers using the Knee binding vs standard bindings to back this up, and the Howell binding is not yet out on the slopes.
 

ted

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Philpug didn't address this, but, with the possible exception of the Knee binding and new Howell binding, no binding on the market is designed to prevent ACL injuries, nor does setting the binding at a lower setting decrease the likelihood of ACL injuries. This is discussed by Robert Johnson, Carl Ettlinger and Jasper Shealy in "Myths Concerning Alpine Skiing Injuries," Sports Health Nov 2009. Article here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445144/

All current bindings are designed to prevent tibial fractures, and in terms of that, the technology has been stable since the 1980's. I say possible exception of the Knee binding and Howell binding because, although lateral release at the back should in theory reduce the likelihood of ACL injury, there is currently no published injury data in skiers using the Knee binding vs standard bindings to back this up, and the Howell binding is not yet out on the slopes.

I hesitate to go here as there are so many Pivot lovers, but if IRC Rick Howell believes any turntable binding, with the lateral wings that restrict lateral movement at the heel,
are are riskier for ACL injuries. The thinking is that even though other binding designs don't have a calibrated lateral heel release, the heel can slip out sometimes but never when the binding has the lateral wings. I can't remember where this was posted, Maybe in the comments in this rabbit hole Wildsnow post-

https://www.wildsnow.com/15123/tech-binding-release-testing-acl-broken-leg/

YMMV
 

JimL

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Ted, thanks for the reference - interesting reading. Your recollection is correct; here is Rick Howell's comment the Wildsnow thread from 10/07/15:

"Most importantly, ALL turntable bindings with ‘side-lugs’ are the #1-cause of ACL ruptures. No boot can pass laterally through the side-lugs of any turntable binding. These bindings are obsolete and dangerous even though they are still openly being sold on today’s market as ‘current’ bindings. Shame on those who make, sell, or induce others to sell or use them."

Lest you think Howell only has it in for Look, here's his comment from 2/13/15 in the same thread about the Tyrolia diagonal release heel bindings:

"So-called ‘Diagonal Release’ that’s a feature in Head / Tyrolia / Fischer / Elan alpine ski bindings ONLY provides lateral heel release AFTER the heel has lifted during forward release. Phantom Foot and Slip-Catch injury mechanisms that are associated with ~80% of all skiing ACL injuries involve REAR-weighting. During rear-weighting, the so-called ‘Diagonal Release’ that’s featured in those bindings is fully-blocked (by design) and therefore cannot and does not provide lateral heel release during rear-weighted combined-valgus loading that causes ACL injury."

Of course, since none of the standard bindings have lateral heel release, it's not clear to me if a turntable binding that completely blocks lateral release is more dangerous than other bindings that also mechanically block lateral release unless the boot moves forward the few mm necessary to clear the heel cup. I would think that rear-weighting would tend to hold the boot back in the cup with the other bindings also, thus inhibiting the boot from sliding out sideways, but I could be wrong.
 
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Philpug

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Yes, Rick is not a Pivot fan and yes, the diagnol in the Tyrolia heel design does not come into play until the heel has already released.
 
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Philpug

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Philpug didn't address this, but, with the possible exception of the Knee binding and new Howell binding, no binding on the market is designed to prevent ACL injuries, nor does setting the binding at a lower setting decrease the likelihood of ACL injuries. This is discussed by Robert Johnson, Carl Ettlinger and Jasper Shealy in "Myths Concerning Alpine Skiing Injuries," Sports Health Nov 2009. Article here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445144/

All current bindings are designed to prevent tibial fractures, and in terms of that, the technology has been stable since the 1980's. I say possible exception of the Knee binding and Howell binding because, although lateral release at the back should in theory reduce the likelihood of ACL injury, there is currently no published injury data in skiers using the Knee binding vs standard bindings to back this up, and the Howell binding is not yet out on the slopes.
Actually there was at least one documented ACL injury with a Kneebinding (that I know of). Still with such a small amount of these bindings on the market, is the percentages of injury much different than any other binding?
 

JimL

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Yes, that is the question. Howell says that lateral heel release is intended to address the mechanism behind approximately 80% of ACL (and maybe MCL) injuries, so it doesn't eliminate those injuries, just as standard bindings don't eliminate tibia fractures, but has reduced them to a significant degree. Howell has developed new measuring techniques which he feels are relevant and useful but the real question is, what degree his measurements and designs will correlate with ACL injury rates. As far as I know, the ongoing studies on ski safety do not address specific binding designs. Even if one could measure the numerator (number of skiers injured correlated with binding used), how would you determine the denominator (number of skiers on the hill with a specific binding design) so as to get a reliable injury percentage?

We do know that measurement protocols that Howell and others designed in the past did correlate with reductions in fractures, and apparently other researchers are working on duplicating and/or extending his research, so there appears to be hope for the future. And it is always a good thing when more than one researcher/engineer comes to the same conclusions, particularly if they come at the problem from a different direction - it gives you more confidence in the conclusions.

As of right now, though, the only published data on reducing ACL injuries is from research from Johnson, Shealy and Ettlinger, and focuses on training skiers to avoid high risk behaviors and correct high risk body positions. That has been shown to reduce ACL injuries by around 70-80%.
 
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Philpug

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As of right now, though, the only published data on reducing ACL injuries is from research from Johnson, Shealy and Ettlinger, and focuses on training skiers to avoid high risk behaviors and correct high risk body positions. That has been shown to reduce ACL injuries by around 70-80%.
Bindings were designed to protect bones. ligaments are completely different.
 

JimL

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Absolutely agree. I don't think we are in any disagreement. My original post was to point out that the anonymous shop person's comment on Reddit about the Pivot not preventing an ACL injury was a (common) misconception, since neither the Pivot OR ANY OTHER standard binding is designed to prevent ACL injuries.

The question is whether they can also be designed to protect ligaments without compromising bone protection and retention. Rick Howell says yes, we will have to see if other researchers/engineers agree.
 
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